armor plate carriers

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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby Randygmn on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:03 pm

mecra wrote:Thanks for the thoughts guys.

What do you think of:

http://www.policehq.com/Products/COND-DFPC

I'm not sure how quality Condor products are. Compared to the other sites listed in this thread, it's significantly cheaper than some of the other options. But it is a carrier with side panels and a full front of molle.

Another questions, would you guys think that it would be best to get the rifle protection or would the more flexible fabric pistol armor be enough? I could go either way. A lot of people in SHTF situations would have pistol grade ammo, but there would definitely be those with rifles. If one's considering such a purchase, might as well go for the full monte?


The rule of thumb is if you're operating a rifle, you need rifle plates. In a bad situation, because you have a rifle, you'll be a priority target.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby Seismic Sam on Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:56 pm

mecra wrote:
Seismic Sam wrote:Considering what "going the full monty" actually means, I think it's the opposite of the concept you are talking about. Just sayin'...

And if we are talking about a REAL SHTF situation, then afterwards anybody with the brains left on the insides of their head are going to be keeping their heads down and not wandering around where they could take a body shot to begin with, so I'm not sure what kind of situation you are considering.


So you're not interested in any protection during a REAL SHTF situation? because you've been in one? ;)


Ummm, considering my nearest neighbor is 800 yards out, and I have a rifle that is the full equivalent of the British .338 Laupua that holds the world record for longest kill (and I could NEVER come close that record, but at 800 - 1000 yards it would be a relative cakewalk) what is body armor going to buy me?? Plus there is one other thing: I'm 65, my mother died at 61 of rheumatoid arthritis, and I have osteo arthritis and a full knee replacement already. Plus I have logged several thousand hours at Our Lady of Peace Hospice and Bethesda Critical Injury/Rehab hospital, and seen every kind of mutilated human there is. Some make it, some don't. As such, I'm already overdue, and dying isn't all that scary to me anymore.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby bullets on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:26 pm

Blueforcegear's PlateMinus Carrier is a good light weight option, especially when matched with DKX Max plates.
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armor plate carriers

Postby LumberZach on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:40 pm

bullets wrote:Blueforcegear's PlateMinus Carrier is a good light weight option, especially when matched with DKX Max plates.

Also this. However this option is nearly $1000+ isn't it?
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby mecra on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:08 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:
mecra wrote:
Seismic Sam wrote:Considering what "going the full monty" actually means, I think it's the opposite of the concept you are talking about. Just sayin'...

And if we are talking about a REAL SHTF situation, then afterwards anybody with the brains left on the insides of their head are going to be keeping their heads down and not wandering around where they could take a body shot to begin with, so I'm not sure what kind of situation you are considering.


So you're not interested in any protection during a REAL SHTF situation? because you've been in one? ;)


Ummm, considering my nearest neighbor is 800 yards out, and I have a rifle that is the full equivalent of the British .338 Laupua that holds the world record for longest kill (and I could NEVER come close that record, but at 800 - 1000 yards it would be a relative cakewalk) what is body armor going to buy me?? Plus there is one other thing: I'm 65, my mother died at 61 of rheumatoid arthritis, and I have osteo arthritis and a full knee replacement already. Plus I have logged several thousand hours at Our Lady of Peace Hospice and Bethesda Critical Injury/Rehab hospital, and seen every kind of mutilated human there is. Some make it, some don't. As such, I'm already overdue, and dying isn't all that scary to me anymore.


Amazingly and thankfully, I'm not you. ;) If you don't have the capacity to move around feely, let alone with 20+ lbs of armor, by all means don't and snipe away. However, don't assume the rest of us are in that situation. I have a wife that I will need to get food for as an example. Thus waltzing out with no armor doesn't actually seem like a great idea in that bad of a situation. We can plan all we want, but magically, we'll probably forget the ONE thing we need and I'll have to go get it.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby mecra on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:10 pm

bullets wrote:Blueforcegear's PlateMinus Carrier is a good light weight option, especially when matched with DKX Max plates.


Nice looking stuff.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby UnaStamus on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:40 am

The use of plates is a mixed bag, because you get the good with the bad. You increase your survivability due to hard plate bullet protection, but you decrease your mobility due to the increase in weight and reduction of range of movement. This in turn causes your survivability to drop due to lack of mobility. This is a lesson learned quite well in Afghanistan where US troops were getting outrun by Taliban fighters in the mountains. US troops just simply had too much weight, and were slow-moving targets.

So, here are some things to know about plate armor from an operational LE and MIL standpoint...

Terms to Know:
Stand Alone: the plate functions at the listed protection level without any additional soft or rigid ballistic panels or backers
Spalling: fragmenting of the projectile or armor plate that can eject outward and act like shrapnel
Multi-Hit: plate can take multiple hits to a single localized location without any failure (full penetration)
PC: Plate Carrier
Backer: A thin ballistic panel that is designed by the plate armor manufacturer to sit behind or in front of the armor plate to increase the protection level or to stop spalling


NIJ and Similar Rifle Protection Levels:
Level IIA, II & IIIA: Soft armor; cannot stop high velocity rifle projectiles
Level III: standard high velocity rifle protection without any additional requirements or backings
--Level III Variations:
-----Level III standard: Single hit from conventional rifle projectile
-----Level III Multi-Hit: Designed for multi-hit protection in the same location
-----Level III M855/Penetrator Multi-Hit: Designed to stop M855 penetrator type ammunition in multiple hits. Only one designed to meet this specification.
Level III/IV: Plate offers stand-alone Level III protection, usually penetrator multi-hit. If you combine the plate with a soft or non-rigid armor backing panel made by the same manufacturer, the plate becomes Level IV capable
Level IV: Plate will stop military issue small arms armor piercing (AP) projectiles that are designed to penetrate normal hard plate armor (not rated to stop HTI loads like .50BMG, .408CT, .416Barrett .375CT, etc)


Armor Plate Materials:
Polyethylene (aka Dyneema Polyethylene, "Poly"): Dense plastic plating that is ultra-light, and much lighter than any other plate.
Pros:
The main advantage is reduced weight. These plates tend to be half the weight of the next lightest hard armor plate material. Poly plates also do not spall.

Cons:
These plates may or may not be multi-hit capable, and may or may not stop penetrator loads. Poly construction is very inconsistent between manufacturers, and there is no set standard. Most will not stop M855 penetrator loads, and the ones that do will not have M855 multi-hit protection. Additionally, poly plates are 2-3x thicker than other plates. They can only be made to a certain density, so the manufacturer must increase thickness to increase protection. The average poly plate is around 1" thick.

---------

Steel:
steel plating made from AR500 steel
Pros:
Steel is the least expensive, as it is easy to produce. It is also easy to shape or cut, making it ideal for custom applications. It also tends to be the thinnest of all armors. Steel is the most durable of all plate armor, and can withstand high heat and temperature fluctuations. It can be abused and banged around without any damage. Steel can be wrapped in fiberglass or aramid (Kevlar) to reduce or eliminate spalling.

Cons:
Steel is the heaviest of all plates, and is typically only offered in single curve options. Steel causes projectile spalling upon impact. Not capable of being Level IV Stand Alone rated. Steel is also prone to damage/degradation due to corrosion, so it helps to be kept dry.

-------

Ceramic: A composite non-metallic material that absorbs energy. Also referred to as alumina, boron carbide or silicon carbide.
Pros:
Ceramic is the highest level of protection, and can be designed to meet various protection levels based on design. Because of the construction of ceramic, it can be formed into various designs and put into a multi-curve design that better forms to the body. Ceramic can be formed using a hybrid construction to increase protection levels and reduce spalling. The most common hybrid components are ceramic/composite fiber(fiberglass), ceramic/polyethylene(plastic fiber) and ceramic/aramid(Kevlar). Ceramic plates can be designed for multi-hit capability, and typically all stop penetrator loads. They are lighter than steel.

Cons:
Ceramic is the most expensive, and can cost upwards of $1k or more per plate for high quality multi-curve plates. Ceramic can cause both projectile and plate spalling if it does not have a hybrid design, or if it does not have sufficient density. Ceramic is thicker than steel due to the design and lighter weight. Ceramic is the least durable of all armors, and is actually somewhat fragile. You should take care to not bang around ceramic plates. Ceramic plates that see regular use, or that are stored in motor vehicles and subsequently subjected to vibration and movement, need to be scanned by x-ray on a regular (typically annual) basis to check for fracturing in the ceramic. Some ceramic plates are also restricted from commercial sale due to design and contract specifics.

_______________________

Ultimately, you have to decide what you want. Something to think about is whether you REALLY NEED Level-IV protection. Very few people have AP ammunition, and most militaries don't issue it anymore, except for special applications. Level III plates that are multi-hit rated and can stop both 7.62x39 MSC and M855 penetrator will stop almost everything. The average hunting rifle, long range high powered loads like .300WM and .338LM, and machinegun ammuntion like M80 will all be stopped by a Level III plate.
Additionally, you need to consider whether you are fine with front and rear coverage, or whether you need lateral protection as well. Some manufacturers make side plates that protect the obliques and lower ribs to reduce possibility of penetration into the lungs. The problem with all of this is that you have no coverage along the outer deltoids to prevent side penetration into the heart, upper lungs or spine. There are plates for this, but these plates are highly restricted.

Here's the thing you have to consider- if SHTF or in a WROL scenario, are you going to be in a position where you have to stand up and fight in a prolonged battle that you'll actually have time to prepare and kit-up for? Probably not. However, a post natural disaster Katrina type scenario could be a legitimate situation where you may need armor to protect against looters.
The problem is that a lot of people who own armor don't train with the armor. You need to be able to shoot with it on, have it set up to work with your clothing (t-shirt or winter coat), and be able to functionally move with it. Physical conditioning plays heavily into this, and most people don't have very good physical conditioning.
Additionally, people need to make sure they have the right sizing for plates and carriers. Plates are one-size-fits-most, but not all. You have to make sure you have the right plates to fit your body.
Keep in mind that the highest quality plate companies like Velocity Systems and ProTech won't sell their armor to civilians. There are companies that won't sell directly, and some that won't sell at all.
Another issue to consider is that not all companies test their plates the same way, or the way that NIJ does. Because of this, you need to look for the appropriate NIJ 0101.06 certification if you want proven and certified capability. A lot of lower end or unknown companies don't have this certification, so be careful about who you buy from.


As far as the carrier, there are many options out there. What you buy should be based on how much you plan on using it. My armor carrier vests are all top of the line and a lot higher quality than what most people have, but I also use my armor on a regular basis in a professional capacity. I also train with my armor pretty extensively, and my gear keeps going and takes punishment that would kill lesser carriers. The money you spend on a carrier is direction proportional to the quality of the gear and the number of features. The vest carrier by Condor will work, but Condor is a lower grade "economy" company. They are better than the generic Chicomm crap you would see on eBay or at gun shows, but they are no where near the quality of high end systems like Crye Precision, Mayflower R&C, Velocity Systems, First Spear, MSA Paraclete, Shellback Tactical, or BlueForceGear.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby mecra on Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:48 am

Unistamus, that's the kind of information I was hoping to get when I first started this thread. Awesome information and thoughts.

Since you sound pretty up on the topic, what do you think of the nano-tube stuff that AR500 is making?

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-1 ... 8LFibGTFRs

(for example)

I don't see the rating you specified on the stuff so I guess it's anyone's guess if it really does the job it says it does. The question that follows is do i consider IIIA or pure III? Looters and gang violence? probably IIIA. Full on apoc? would consider then III. Sounds like III is the all round best option for protection, but then you have the weight you have to deal with.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby JustMe on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:13 pm

I remember seeing some at the Brooklyn Park Fleet Farm, and saw that they are U.S. Palm brand. I did not see any markings or tags or literature with the armor for model type of armor or NIJ rating. I looked on the U.S. Palm web site and think I found the type at FF:
https://uspalm.com/products/sap-c-carrier.html
Has anyone here bought the armor at FF, and know the type that it is?
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby UnaStamus on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:49 pm

mecra wrote:Unistamus, that's the kind of information I was hoping to get when I first started this thread. Awesome information and thoughts.

Since you sound pretty up on the topic, what do you think of the nano-tube stuff that AR500 is making?

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-1 ... 8LFibGTFRs

(for example)

I don't see the rating you specified on the stuff so I guess it's anyone's guess if it really does the job it says it does. The question that follows is do i consider IIIA or pure III? Looters and gang violence? probably IIIA. Full on apoc? would consider then III. Sounds like III is the all round best option for protection, but then you have the weight you have to deal with.

IIIA is less than III. IIIA is soft armor that will only stop pistol and shotgun projectiles. It won't stop high velocity rifle. Level III is hard plate armor that will stop rifle (as well as handgun and shotgun). If you're looking for the best protection between those two, Level III is going to be the best.
As far as that armor, it's a pretty low grade soft armor. They throw a lot of fancy terminology into the concept, like carbon nanotube and "non-Newtonian foam" (curious about that one because it's typically only used to reference fluids). You don't see the NIJ rating because it's likely not tested to NIJ specifications. Because it's not, you have no guarantee that it will perform at the advertised protection level. I can also tell you that it's low grade armor based on the price. Soft armor that can cover front and back for $260 is pretty low end. My current Level IIIA duty patrol vest cost close to $1100, just for the armor panels. Decent quality soft armor vests are going to start in the $500 range.


JustMe wrote:I remember seeing some at the Brooklyn Park Fleet Farm, and saw that they are U.S. Palm brand. I did not see any markings or tags or literature with the armor for model type of armor or NIJ rating. I looked on the U.S. Palm web site and think I found the type at FF:
https://uspalm.com/products/sap-c-carrier.html
Has anyone here bought the armor at FF, and know the type that it is?

Those plates are Level IV Stand-Alone, which means they will stop AP rounds. The construction listed is ceramic/steel composite. That likely means that a Level III steel plate was encased in ceramic. A standard ceramic plate is around 6lbs, but those plates in that US Palm system are between 7 and 8lbs.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby ktech on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:10 am

UnaStamus has a lot of good information!
One thing I wanted to add; the military body armor (SAPI plates) is a whole different ballgame, and is not tested to NIJ standards, but rather to the military's own standards (to some controversy). That being said, like was mentioned earlier, military armor tends to be very good; just very heavy. A fully loaded armor vest is composed of hard ceramic plates and soft Spectra (Kevlar cousin) plates, and as such weighs quite a lot.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby Ghost on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:53 pm

xd ED wrote:I think your time and money would be better spent finding better places to shoot. When a gun range is a greater hazard than the street something there is very wrong.

I'm on the waiting list. :(

And when I get time I just go to the family farm.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby mecra on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:06 pm

Those plates are Level IV Stand-Alone, which means they will stop AP rounds. The construction listed is ceramic/steel composite. That likely means that a Level III steel plate was encased in ceramic. A standard ceramic plate is around 6lbs, but those plates in that US Palm system are between 7 and 8lbs.


What are your thoughts on 6mag vs 8mag configurations? Systems like the Banshee / Mayflower have enough molle points for 3 double ar15 mags. Some others have enough for 4. Any thoughts if there's enough of a difference to consider between the two quantities of mags? (Kind of a vague question with possibly a vague answer, but I'm curious on your thoughts.)

-edit- I just found out that 210 or so rounds is standard for military. So 3x6mag system.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby farmerj on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Go try strapping a pair of 25 lb weights front and back. Then add in your webgear with another five 5# weights in it, Pick up a weapon and then go for a 5 mile walk.

And for even more fun, put on a 5 lb weight on your motorcycle helmet and a 70 lb backpack


Let us know how you enjoy it.
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Re: armor plate carriers

Postby UnaStamus on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:17 pm

Which carrier you get is going to determine which mag system will work best. Personally, I prefer a 4 mag wide system. Reason being is that I don't like stacking my magazines. I run single-stack mag shingles across the front. My main vest holds a total of 5 mags across the front. I took one space out to hold a CAT TQ.
I don't think people appreciate how bulky stacked magazines are. When you have to move around and get in and out of vehicles, having everything as close to the body as possible is ideal. Because of this, I prefer to only carry one row of gear, and because of that I like to have a 4 mag wide setup, or more.
Part of the problem is that using double and triple mag pouches can be problematic. If you have individual magazine retention features in a double or triple mag pouch, it's not an issue. However, most do not have individual mag retention. What this means is that when a magazine is removed from the pouch, the other mag(s) will flop around, and possibly spill out during movement. Some pouches collapse using elastic, but then they are very difficult to reload under stress should you need to back-fill that magazine pouch.
I have seen a lot of people have problems with double or triple mag pouches where a single pouch holds two or three mags. I much rather prefer to have single mag pouches with PALS/MOLLE webbing on the front so that you can add another row on top if you need to. This way you maintain individual magazine retention.

All of it boils down to how you can make it work, and how you need to make it work. If your carrier is wide enough opt to have more mags on the width, not the depth.
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