How many rounds through a handgun per range session?

[UnaStamus]

Heat should not be a concern when determining if you're shooting too much ammo. The concern should be around why you are shooting. If it's for the purpose of fun and entertainment, it's really a non-issue. If you are actually shooting to train for the purposes of improving your fundamentals or developing proficiency with the manipulation of the gun, then you are better to err on the side of conservation and taking your time rather then doing mag dumps. This is not because of heat buildup, but because of the value of concentrating and taking your time to do things correctly.

Another point of order is that if you are shooting to get better at a specific firearm, doing it part-and-parcel like you are has very low return. Instead of taking three handguns to the range and rotating every 25rds, just take one and spend some extended time with it. Next time at the range, take a different one.

Consider the efficacy of dumping rounds downrange and think about what you're getting out of it. Fun? Enjoyment? Developing proficiency? Improving accuracy? I could make a strong argument that some of the round counts listed above, regardless of intent for why they were fired, amount to nothing more substantive than ballistic masturbation.

Then and again, it's not my money, so do as you please...

[IDPA Shooter]

What he said above. BTW World Champion Robert Vogel says he can shoot 7 rounds a second with his Glock 35. Robert and many top shooters have the fast twitch syndrome. Most of us mortals do 4 per second, with some local Master class shooters shooting 5 or more per second.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[jshuberg]

Are you sure you are doing that in .6 to .7 seconds

Shooting 5 rounds in .6 to .7 seconds? Yeah. It's difficult to do, if I use too much pressure with my weapon hand, trigger stall. Not enough pressure, bye-bye accuracy. There's a very precise balance I've been working on developing. My technique is pretty much good-to-go except for weapon hand grip pressure, which I'm still fine tuning. On a decent day I'll hold a 10-12" groups at 5 yards shooting .11-.12 second splits. Right now if I try to tighten the group up, it's very likely I'll experience trigger stall and be tapping out morse code. On a few occasions when I was really dialed in, I've been able to hold a 5" group at that speed at 5 yards, but I can't yet do that on demand. I'm hoping to dial that in before winter. That means lots and lots of range time. You can only do so much dry fire practice that will benefit rapid fire.

The rule of thumb here is that if you're shooting faster than you can see, you're shooting too fast and likely developing poor technique when doing so. Losing track of the front sight in rapid fire occasionally isn't too bad, but if you're just blasting away and can't see your front site in motion, you need to slow down. You don't want your finger to get ahead of your eyes. Shooting fast isn't about moving the trigger fast, it's about seeing fast, and then moving the trigger fast

Actually, there is no such thing as "seeing fast". It's just a generally understood term that conveys what you're trying to do. What you're actually trying to do is train the subconscious mind to overcome a condition known as chronostasis. This is the temporal illusion that your mind applies to your stream of consciousness to drop small rapid transitions in order to optimize and minimize distractions in our perception. Chronostasis is the mechanism that causes you to not be able to see your front sight lift, pause, and slide back into the rear notch. In order to master the art of shooting quickly, you need to train your subconscious mind to not drop the motion of the front sight from your stream of consciousness. Then it's the mechanics of the trigger squeeze, but that's secondary to seeing the front site. For me right now it's all about my weapon hand grip being strong enough to assist the support hand in managing recoil, while also being light enough to maintain dexterity and fine muscle control in my trigger finger so it doesn't stall out at speed.

This was from a year ago or so. It was a class where we were shooting from a buddies Jeep. The first couple strings I was just worried about not shooting his door, the last string I decided to let go the speed. It was at contact distance, so accuracy wasn't an issue. This was 5 rounds in .536 seconds, the best I've got on video at this point. This was with a Sig P226 Stainless w/bruce gray trigger job and American Eagle 115gr factory ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWl8iEwbjQ

[farmerj]

Are you sure you are doing that in .6 to .7 seconds

Shooting 5 rounds in .6 to .7 seconds? Yeah. It's difficult to do, if I use too much pressure with my weapon hand, trigger stall. Not enough pressure, bye-bye accuracy. There's a very precise balance I've been working on developing. My technique is pretty much good-to-go except for weapon hand grip pressure, which I'm still fine tuning. On a decent day I'll hold a 10-12" groups at 5 yards shooting .11-.12 second splits. Right now if I try to tighten the group up, it's very likely I'll experience trigger stall and be tapping out morse code. On a few occasions when I was really dialed in, I've been able to hold a 5" group at that speed at 5 yards, but I can't yet do that on demand. I'm hoping to dial that in before winter. That means lots and lots of range time. You can only do so much dry fire practice that will benefit rapid fire.

The rule of thumb here is that if you're shooting faster than you can see, you're shooting too fast and likely developing poor technique when doing so. Losing track of the front sight in rapid fire occasionally isn't too bad, but if you're just blasting away and can't see your front site in motion, you need to slow down. You don't want your finger to get ahead of your eyes. Shooting fast isn't about moving the trigger fast, it's about seeing fast, and then moving the trigger fast

Actually, there is no such thing as "seeing fast". It's just a generally understood term that conveys what you're trying to do. What you're actually trying to do is train the subconscious mind to overcome a condition known as chronostasis. This is the temporal illusion that your mind applies to your stream of consciousness to drop small rapid transitions in order to optimize and minimize distractions in our perception. Chronostasis is the mechanism that causes you to not be able to see your front sight lift, pause, and slide back into the rear notch. In order to master the art of shooting quickly, you need to train your subconscious mind to not drop the motion of the front sight from your stream of consciousness. Then it's the mechanics of the trigger squeeze, but that's secondary to seeing the front site. For me right now it's all about my weapon hand grip being strong enough to assist the support hand in managing recoil, while also being light enough to maintain dexterity and fine muscle control in my trigger finger so it doesn't stall out at speed.

This was from a year ago or so. It was a class where we were shooting from a buddies Jeep. The first couple strings I was just worried about not shooting his door, the last string I decided to let go the speed. It was at contact distance, so accuracy wasn't an issue. This was 5 rounds in .536 seconds, the best I've got on video at this point. This was with a Sig P226 Stainless w/bruce gray trigger job and American Eagle 115gr factory ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWl8iEwbjQ

Didn't you shoot the course with phorvick and I when he was instate some years back?

[jshuberg]

This was from a class at Scratch's range last summer.

[farmerj]

we did a lot of work on trigger reset in our class as well. So I had no doubt you were getting those kind of times. Those that can't, find it hard to believe when there are those than can.

I will also say, it was impressive to see the number of follow up hits that were being made as well even at full speed. 3 hits to the chest in less than 1.3-1.5 seconds from a drawn holster. 3 hits to the torso with a drawn pistol even at retention in less than .3-.4 seconds.

[Bessy]

Average splits, while maintaining front sight focus, and calling my shots are right around .2 I'm a B shooter in USPSA, and this is pretty typical of that skill range. My splits don't seem super affected by short transitions. If I'm just point shooting something in muzzle contact range obviously you can speed that up to basically however fast you can pull the trigger. There is a big difference between aimed accurate fire, and point shooting something a foot away. Any one, with a little practice, can take a gun and shove it into a dangling dummy's stomach 2 feet away and pull the trigger as fast as they can.
Fast accurate fire, is orders of magnitude more difficult to do well. I'd argue that 5 rounds a of aimed fire a second is not really extraordinary, it's really more par for the course.

YMMV

[TTS]

Are you sure you are doing that in .6 to .7 seconds

Shooting 5 rounds in .6 to .7 seconds? Yeah. It's difficult to do, if I use too much pressure with my weapon hand, trigger stall. Not enough pressure, bye-bye accuracy. There's a very precise balance I've been working on developing. My technique is pretty much good-to-go except for weapon hand grip pressure, which I'm still fine tuning. On a decent day I'll hold a 10-12" groups at 5 yards shooting .11-.12 second splits. Right now if I try to tighten the group up, it's very likely I'll experience trigger stall and be tapping out morse code. On a few occasions when I was really dialed in, I've been able to hold a 5" group at that speed at 5 yards, but I can't yet do that on demand. I'm hoping to dial that in before winter. That means lots and lots of range time. You can only do so much dry fire practice that will benefit rapid fire.

The rule of thumb here is that if you're shooting faster than you can see, you're shooting too fast and likely developing poor technique when doing so. Losing track of the front sight in rapid fire occasionally isn't too bad, but if you're just blasting away and can't see your front site in motion, you need to slow down. You don't want your finger to get ahead of your eyes. Shooting fast isn't about moving the trigger fast, it's about seeing fast, and then moving the trigger fast

Actually, there is no such thing as "seeing fast". It's just a generally understood term that conveys what you're trying to do. What you're actually trying to do is train the subconscious mind to overcome a condition known as chronostasis. This is the temporal illusion that your mind applies to your stream of consciousness to drop small rapid transitions in order to optimize and minimize distractions in our perception. Chronostasis is the mechanism that causes you to not be able to see your front sight lift, pause, and slide back into the rear notch. In order to master the art of shooting quickly, you need to train your subconscious mind to not drop the motion of the front sight from your stream of consciousness. Then it's the mechanics of the trigger squeeze, but that's secondary to seeing the front site. For me right now it's all about my weapon hand grip being strong enough to assist the support hand in managing recoil, while also being light enough to maintain dexterity and fine muscle control in my trigger finger so it doesn't stall out at speed.

This was from a year ago or so. It was a class where we were shooting from a buddies Jeep. The first couple strings I was just worried about not shooting his door, the last string I decided to let go the speed. It was at contact distance, so accuracy wasn't an issue. This was 5 rounds in .536 seconds, the best I've got on video at this point. This was with a Sig P226 Stainless w/bruce gray trigger job and American Eagle 115gr factory ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWl8iEwbjQ

Color me impressed, I have only seen a few people in the world get faster than .15 splits.... Rob Leatham bring one of them.

[TTS]

Here is a video of Jerry Miculek shooting .15 splits (with one .10)

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s?t=2m25s

[Bessy]

Here is a video of Jerry Miculek shooting .15 splits (with one .10)

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s?t=2m25s

The incredible part of this video isn't the splits. Look at the grouping on steel, and realize that he's still seeing his sight at this speed. Also keep in mind he's using a red-dot, and a the gun is has a ported barrel, which DOES help him. He's quite the incredible shooter.

[farmerj]

I'm trying to understand why people find it so hard to believe that you can easily learn these same techniques and achieve similar results.

Phorvick and I were teaching this stuff 8-9 years ago.

[TTS]

I'm trying to understand why people find it so hard to believe that you can easily learn these same techniques and achieve similar results.

Phorvick and I were teaching this stuff 8-9 years ago.

Shooting sub .2 splits and hitting your target beyond contact distance is an upper echelon ability. The difference in consistently shooting .2 splits and .1 splits is similar to driving at 100mph vs 200mph. Almost anyone in any car can do 100mph, but at 200mph you need a very special car and driver not to wreck.

If you have been teaching people to shoot sub .15 splits (and hit the target) for years, you are beyond any of the instructors I have worked with or trained under.

This is all assuming we are talking about 5-6 shots not 2. Most competent USPSA competitors can do a .15 AA/AC on a close hoser target.

[jshuberg]

There are 3 things involved n shooting this fast with decent accuracy. In order of importance they are:

1) seeing the front sight as it moves in recoil
2) operating the trigger properly
3) maintaining the proper grip that will automatically bring the gun back on target after recoil

The hardest part is not losing the sight. As long as you can see the site, your subconscious minds can make very small corrections in aim, even at these speeds. This is hard to do though, since your subconscious mind will fight you on this. I've come up with some exercises that hep with this.

The next hardest part is trigger control. I've discovered something interesting and a bit counter-intuitive here. It helps to have at least a several pound trigger reset spring. This will necessarily increase the rearward trigger weight as well, but a really light trigger is significantly more difficult to operate at speed. Here's the technique:

You do *not* want to move your trigger finger in two directions the way you normally do. You only want to move your finger rearward, and with only enough pressure to overcome the trigger spring. The more strength you put on the trigger, the more you'll stall out. What happens is that you just apply minimal pressure until the round fires. Your startle reflex is faster than your raw reaction time, so what you want to do is *leverage* your startle reflex when the gun fires, and to stop applying pressure to the trigger in that very brief moment. You let the trigger reset spring move your finger forward for you. If you move your finger forward with your muscles, you can move your finger off the trigger, costing distance and time, and then you have to then change directions, and activate a different set of muscles to begin squeezing rearward again. By letting the reset spring handle the reset for you, your finger will most likely never leave the trigger face, and you don't have to stop moving forward, turn around and start moving back again. It's simply an oscillation of pressure, startle/relax, pressure, startle/relax. It actually feels like your squeezing the trigger rearward the entire time. With a heavy enough reset spring you *can* actually always be applying the slightest amount of pressure rearward at all times, it's just that the power of the reset spring overcomes that slight rearward pressure on the trigger and moves your finger forward for you in response to your startle reflex. A super light trigger is more difficult, it needs to be strong enough to move a relaxed finger forward to work. I call this technique "galloping" the trigger.

It takes dexterity of the trigger finger to do this. The tighter the rest of your hand is gripping the gun, the less dexterity you'll have in your trigger finger. The problem is that the point where hand strength is enough to properly manage recoil, yet light enough to operate the trigger is a very small space. For some people there may be no overlap here at all. It's very difficult to get this balanced perfectly, but when you can it's crazy how your speed and accuracy both jump to your maximums. Increasing the strength of your hands by with exercise will help here, the stronger your hand is, the more force you can apply before your dexterity in your trigger finger suffers. I'm currently working on both dialing in this balance, and hand strength to make to balance point larger. We'll see how it goes!

So anyways, shooting this fast isn't magic, it just takes a lot of time, a lot of patience (we get more out of a shooting session after reaching the point of boredom, and pushing through it), and an understanding of the mechanics involved. And a willingness to try things that feel unorthodox and awkward.

Give it a whirl sometime. Just make sure you're safe when trying it. If your trigger finger is stalling out, and it sounds like you're tapping out morse code, slightly loosen your weapon hand grip, and lighten your rearward pressure on the trigger. If your accuracy sucks, make sure that if you're not seeing the sight travel through recoil, that you can at least remember seeing it for an instant between shots. If you see your sights but your accuracy still sucks, you need to increase grip strength, or increase whatever recoil control technique your using to get the gun back down again.

Other than all this, it's really easy!

[jshuberg]

Here is a video of Jerry Miculek shooting .15 splits (with one .10)

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s?t=2m25s

Yeah, well, he's evolved beyond and is no longer constrained by human limitations.

[TTS]

There are 3 things involved...

I appreciate that you always have such a positive tone. That is great advice.