Just got kicked off the range at Bills in Robbinsdale

[igofast]

... Went to Osseo a few times but rarely do anymore as most of my friends have had bad interactions with the owner and do not want to go.

Unfortunately I had a not so positive experience with Osseo related to SBR's and Suppressors. Apparently to shoot a suppressor or SBR there you need to show your papers. Ya know, all those illegally acquired suppressors are showing up all the time at gun ranges. Feels really crappy. I ask why they are auditing those when anyone from off the street can shoot a gun with just an ID but I have to prove that I've acquired my suppressors legally? They said they have to be really careful with ATF regulations. I get that they are protecting themselves, but it's hard for me to be on their side when they have 2nd amendment stuff(cold dead hands, tyranny, fear the gov't, etc) all over the place. Additionally they almost didn't allow me showing digital copies. One of my stamps was submitted/approved online and is only available electronically - so not sure how that's supposed to work.

I think there are some overreaching ATF folks out there that are threatening pulling licenses if they don't comply.

Once I was on the line the RO was very pleasant - but getting to that point was painful.

On the other hand I have had a sig braced AK pistol at Osseo previously and wasn't given a 2nd look.

[samginko]

Do we have a history of atf and le raiding shooting ranges? I've not heard of any, my understanding is you don't even need to keep your stamp on your nfa item. Lots of nfa holders keep the stamp under lock and key. Seriously, do we have cops randomly spot checking ranges.

Or is this another incident of people resorting to political correctness and refusing to apply common sense.

[Snakeman721]

I'm a RSO at Osseo Gun Club. I see lots of AR pistols...some with a Sig brace, some with just a padded buffer tube. If I see someone trying to shoulder an AR pistol, I remind that the ATF considers it illegal and could they please refrain from doing it. BUT, we do NOT kick the customer out. The gun is legal, we warned him about it's legal use, after that...there's really not much else we can do. Almost everyone I've warned complies. A lot of them are unaware of the ATF ruling (so they say). But, we don't kick them out for touiching the buffer tube to their cheek. As for having your tax stamp for suppressors and SBRs, a photocopy is good to go. And yes, it's for covering our butt. The ATF does regular audits and who knows if they might happen to glance in at the goings on the range.

That said, I'm friends with the owner and know that he will bend over backwards for customers. So, you really have to do something stupid or be a prick to get on his bad side.

Oh yeah, we don't allow aluminum ammo either and I DO know the difference between aluminum, nickle, and steel case ammo...even the really shiny steel case stuff. Just had to tell 2 different guys that we don't allow aluminum this past Saturday as they were putting boxes of it out on the line table.

[yukonjasper]

Just curious on what the deal is with aluminum cases? Sorry, a little off topic.

[xd ED]

Just curious on what the deal is with aluminum cases? Sorry, a little off topic.

As it was explained to me several years ago:
It's an OSHA thing-
Aluminum cases are banned because they cannot be sorted from brass with a magnet.
The employees at Bill's are not hazmat certified to handle/ hand sort the spent cases for lack of lead contamination training/ certification.

FWIW. I had the rare, reasonable RO allow me to shoot alum cased .38/ .357 in my wheel gun, so long as I did not let them hit the floor.

I quit shooting at Bill's due to a pissy ROs sweeping my brass rounds down range when they hit the floor, lest I recover them.

[photogpat]

Just curious on what the deal is with aluminum cases? Sorry, a little off topic.

Can't easily (or mechanically) separate from brass for recycling.

[igofast]

,,, As for having your tax stamp for suppressors and SBRs, a photocopy is good to go. And yes, it's for covering our butt. The ATF does regular audits and who knows if they might happen to glance in at the goings on the range.
...

So you're responsible for making sure everyone one your range is legal? Do you do background checks on everyone who rents a gun and/or uses the range? Do you serial number check everyone's gun to make sure it's not stolen? Of course not - because not only would you be drowning in red tape, but you would also have no customers. But you realize that your singling out people who have gone to additional time, expense, and scrutiny only to again have to prove that they are law abiding? As I said before, being on the receiving end of it does not feel pleasant. Not only that, but what are your next steps if I don't show proper documentation?

Those somewhat snarky questions aside - what happens if the range gets audited by the ATF while someone with a suppressor is on the line? Do they believe you that you checked the papers, or will they also check the stamps? If they would still check, what's the point?

If there is something else at work that I'm not understanding please educate me. Right now what it feels like is the ATF is asking/pressing on ranges to do their job for them(I know you can't speak for Bill's, but I'm under the assumption that they are in the same boat). Instead of taking the ATF's suggestions under advisement, ranges are jumping in to help.

I absolutely agree with friendly education, but I fail to see how the range is liable for the felon that used the range - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for someone shouldering a sig brace - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for allowing someone to shoot a suppressor without checking their stamp.

[george]

Well, I will say if you want to see my stamp, you will need to be damb nice, have some authority or a badge and not a CCW one either.

[Holland&Holland]

,,, As for having your tax stamp for suppressors and SBRs, a photocopy is good to go. And yes, it's for covering our butt. The ATF does regular audits and who knows if they might happen to glance in at the goings on the range.
...

So you're responsible for making sure everyone one your range is legal? Do you do background checks on everyone who rents a gun and/or uses the range? Do you serial number check everyone's gun to make sure it's not stolen? Of course not - because not only would you be drowning in red tape, but you would also have no customers. But you realize that your singling out people who have gone to additional time, expense, and scrutiny only to again have to prove that they are law abiding? As I said before, being on the receiving end of it does not feel pleasant. Not only that, but what are your next steps if I don't show proper documentation?

Those somewhat snarky questions aside - what happens if the range gets audited by the ATF while someone with a suppressor is on the line? Do they believe you that you checked the papers, or will they also check the stamps? If they would still check, what's the point?

If there is something else at work that I'm not understanding please educate me. Right now what it feels like is the ATF is asking/pressing on ranges to do their job for them(I know you can't speak for Bill's, but I'm under the assumption that they are in the same boat). Instead of taking the ATF's suggestions under advisement, ranges are jumping in to help.

I absolutely agree with friendly education, but I fail to see how the range is liable for the felon that used the range - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for someone shouldering a sig brace - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for allowing someone to shoot a suppressor without checking their stamp.

Most ranges are generally private businesses. Do they not have the right to decide under what terms they will do business? Just as you have a right to decide who you will do business with or what you will say about their business on the interwebs. Quid-pro-quo.

Seems simple, they perceive a risk, they decide how they will mitigate that risk. Does it work? Maybe, maybe not. D

[yukonjasper]

I agree, unfortunately it's the chilling effect that the ATF and others were hoping for. They can't control what gets through the legislature, but they can control how that legislation is perceived and enforced. If they are successful in convincing the range owner that holy hell will be unleashed if they don't police their customers, they don't feel like they have a choice to say buzz off. I think,over time, things will loosen up, but for now it is likely to be very inconvenient.

[UnaStamus]

If you bring an NFA item outside the house, you should have a copy of your NFA form 1 or form 4 just in case. I carry downsized hi-res copies the size of an index card stuffed into a sealed VFG or into the grip. It's legible enough to read the stamp information and all necessary fields. If you are out at a range and the ATF happens to be there, they could make your day very difficult if you don't have paperwork to prove an SBR or suppressor is legal. This is the same with police if for some reason you happen to be stopped and the rifle is seen and identified as a possible NFA item. I have seen people who do not case their firearms in SUVs, and things like that. We have a responsible crowd here, but there are a lot of gun owners who are pretty lazy about their safety and security.

I can't blame ranges for wanting to CY6 to prevent any issues. In the end, I understand that ranges are a business first. They exist to make money and further the owner's interests. They do not exist to be your friend and fishing buddy and help you out in such a manner that puts them at risk or probable risk of liability. I've had this discussion before at various businesses regarding those businesses and people complaining because they "want them to help out" and give the person a break or "hook them up". It's a unique position that we are in with firearms because of the constitutional element, but you're still dealing with private property and private business and they have an interest in protecting themselves before they are interested in furthering your cause.

The only issue I have with Bill's GS is the constant Derp that occurs with the unending stream of Guns&Ammo educated sales associates or the range not booting out the real people who are the problem. I literally had a sales associate at the Circle Pines location tell me that he was gonna pull a gun on me the next time I touched a shotgun on the wall. He then walked away without asking me if I want to look at anything. I had a discussion with management over that one.

[Scratch]

...But, we don't kick them out for touiching the buffer tube to their cheek...

I'm going to assume you meant to say "shoulder", not cheek here correct...?

[igofast]

Most ranges are generally private businesses. Do they not have the right to decide under what terms they will do business? Just as you have a right to decide who you will do business with or what you will say about their business on the interwebs. Quid-pro-quo.

Seems simple, they perceive a risk, they decide how they will mitigate that risk. Does it work? Maybe, maybe not. D

This is the conclusion I came to months ago after the original event. However, the OP reminded me of the incident and despite time passing it appears I'm still bitter. The issue as I see it is less about one range(which I could begrudgingly deal with) and more about all ranges falling in line of a risk I don't believe is even there. In which case my right to decide has then been taking away: show me you papers!!!

[yukonjasper]

You are probably right, however, its a private range and if they wanted to require that everyone salute a picture of Richard Nixon before entering the Range to shoot, they could probably do that. Your only recourse is to comply or go elsewhere. At the end of the day, the free market will speak if the pressure put on the NFA crowd is undue and they can convince enough others to protest by not spending the money at that range.

[crbutler]

So what liability does a range or landowner have in regards to tax stamped items?

While I could see ATF looking at a FA gun owner and asking for stamp info, and if he doesn't have it arrest him, I can't see that they could do anything to the range... They did not commit any crime...

Of course, as I recall, one of the Bill's operations does have class III stuff and is a dealer, so maybe that has something to do with it (ATF assuming it is the ranges gun and its unregistered) but that would be quickly disproven by the monitoring video.

Quite frankly, I used to buy a lot of stuff there, and then got rudely treated by a couple employees and then the manager, and have not graced their premises since then (about 10 years ago).