Gun Vault

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Gun Vault

Postby LumberZach on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:37 pm

Hi everyone,

I might have the fortune of building a house soon. I'm not certain how this will work yet, but if I can make it happen I would love to put in a gun vault. I've been looking around for tips, suggestions, and what others have done for a while now. I was wondering if anyone had tips or suggestions on this here as well?

Fire and theft are the primary concerns, but above that would also be moisture control. It looks like I will either want to make a solid block of concrete when pouring the foundation, or cinder blocks filled with concrete. Both of which mean it will be heavy and have to go in the basement. With a new house I shouldn't have to worry about water in the basement, but what would anyone suggest long term to ensure water in my basement doesn't ruin a nice collection down the road? In Minnesota, it seems hard to guarantee it will never happen in the life of a house. I understand a lot of people might not want to share too in depth specifics of their own set ups, but any help is appreciated.

At this point I am not certain I will be able to make my dream vault come true, but if I am building anyway it sounds like I should be able to put in a nice vault for about the price of a nice safe.

Thanks all!


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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Scratch on Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:31 am

Room Dehumidifier with a hose to a drain should do it.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby karlobag on Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:48 am

I helped a friend who was building a house that he included a “wine cellar” (at least that is what the plans called it) as part of it. The “cellar” backed up to one of the exterior walls. For the other three walls of the vault, we put rebar down each block hole vertically, notched the centers of block horizontally, then laid rebar horizontally every course - tied to the vertical bars. He used 4000 PSI concrete poured into the block. He ran the vertical rebar “through” the “J” hook bolts for the door frame, to make it even more secure. He made forms for the roof with crisscrossed rebar and a couple layers of mesh, then poured it.

One thing to note!!! Make sure that the weight of the cinderblock, concrete, and door are not so heavy that it breaks your basement slab or foundation footers. That would be a real mess.

The weakest part is the door. Good ones can be expensive. He got lucky and got a used Diebolt bank vault door for free, from a salvage company that one of his brothers used to run. Make sure you buy one that if the hinges are cut off, the door does not drop or make it easy to pry out.

He installed a motion sensitive light, so that he did not have to fumble around for the light switch, a couple of extra outlets and ran a standard dehumidifier in it. Since he was in it nearly every day, he just empties the tank from the dehumidifier, if it is close to being full. Concrete is pretty much a sponge. He has not had moisture issues that I know of, but he also had the foundation waterproofed and installed good drain tile, with everything sloped away from the house.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Sorcerer on Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:02 pm

Depending on your budget a walk in safe my be in order. Dropped in the basement before the cap goes on. You could also put a foundation in the basement to carry the load and put it on the first floor. Then when the city inspector asks about it you call it a "Safty Room" for tornadoes.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby OldmanFCSA on Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:37 pm

I built a safe room years ago in the basement of a house with a poured foundation and walls which involves a much higher degree of concrete than normal concrete blocks. As explained above by another, we also used concrete block for the other two walls thoroughly laced with rebar and poured full of concrete. As a welder at that time, I constructed the door and door frame from heavy angle iron and steel channel. The door itself was also poured full of concrete around multiple steel reinforcements. After curing it was raised to final wall location and welded in place. The ceiling required a full wood support prior to pouring - it also required lacing with rebar and tieing into walls for full support. To get concrete into location, I had to cut an opening in floor above which "happened" to align with sliding glass doors to deck. Floor was replaced afterward with better materials.

Your prior planning before building the house is a definite improvement to any reconstruction plans. Be sure to label it as a safe room, not as a gun room in your plans. Make sure your wire in all types of electrical including backup power. Also include communication wiring including phone, internet, intercom, and an exterior air source thru a large conduit would be recommended.

Be sure to add a known "only to your family" a method to open the door without lights and in duress. I used steel conduit buried in the concrete to hold a cable to a totally different part of house which would allow unlocking the door quickly. Once inside, it could be easily manually locked out preventing others from accessing your family or possessions should they find the cable by accident. I also had a backup device using air pressure to bypass the locks. Note: the large dial lock on door did absolutely nothing to lock or unlock the door, but was comical to watch others attempt to access my safe room.

Be sure to include a dehumidifier to remove water vapor from the room. It may take a year or more to remove water vapor to point that rust will not form on your valuables - continued use may be required dependent on your basement location.

Wireless communication may not work out of your safe room - my current house does not allow wireless communication of cell phone or laptops in or out resulting in buried wiring being added to my man cave. The steel added to the concrete structure blocks all communication. The concrete extends to the roof line thru the use of foam blocks with a poured concrete center core, walls are 12" thick = 4" foam, 4" concrete, 4" foam, with interior and exterior materials attached to metal in the walls.

Hope this helps with your planning - I can be available if you require more info.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Snakeman721 on Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:45 pm

Concrete is definately the best, but if you can't use concrete because of the weight, use standard 2 x 6 construction with rebar going through the studs every foot or so and rebar in the stud cavities either tied or welded to the horizontal rebar. Then finish like a regular wall. Is it fireproof? No. But it is fairly secure as anybody trying to break through the walls will need a lot a time to get through the rebar too. Better than nothing and not too expensive.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Jackpine Savage on Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:03 pm

Insulated concrete forms and poured walls works well. For the ceiling look into the steel decking that you pour onto and leave in place. Might be cheaper than plywood, braces, and labor.
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Gun Vault

Postby LumberZach on Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:10 pm

Thanks guys! Lots of great info! Ideally I would build a walkout type house and have the vault in the corner. 2 of the 4 walls being foundation. The question is, is concrete above and beyond better than cinder blocks?

Also, should I run hvac into the room, or keep it completely sealed off on its own? Of course I would like to go as large as possible. Hopefully that means enough room for a cleaning/tinkering bench as well and then I would end up spending time in there. In the corner of the basement i would think it should keep fairly comfortable, but the hvac may help with humidity.

Obviously paying for this and the rest of the house won't be fun, but starting from scratch should be cheaper than rebuilding later on. Especially if I keep buying at my current rate...


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Postby Ironbear on Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:27 pm

If the house is being built, plan it in and at minimum, put in a footing for the walls. Personally, if the basement was going to be cast concrete, I would pour the walls in place. The ceiling could be cast-in-place, or precast but some though would need to put into how it would interface with upstairs floor.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby karlobag on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:17 am

Also, should I run hvac into the room, or keep it completely sealed off on its own?


My friend opted against running HVAC into the vault, as he saw it as an access point for fire and/or water damage caused by the FD putting out a fire. He felt it was better to have the vault completely sealed.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Snakeman721 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:44 am

karlobag wrote:
Also, should I run hvac into the room, or keep it completely sealed off on its own?


My friend opted against running HVAC into the vault, as he saw it as an access point for fire and/or water damage caused by the FD putting out a fire. He felt it was better to have the vault completely sealed.


Except that if it's listed as a "safe room" on the plans, code may require it, assuming it's a new build. Retro fitting after the fact ...do what you want. :D
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby Jackpine Savage on Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:14 am

I think ICF and poured concrete is the ultimate in terms of strength and energy efficiency, I'd love to have a whole house with that construction. I know of someone that built a two story house with it.

FEMA has detailed safe room plans using various materials: https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/1418837502817-920f09bb8187ee15436712a3e82ce709/FEMA_P-320_2014-ConstructionPlans_508.pdf

The way things are going you might also do some searches on 'fallout shelter'.

If it were me I would provide openings for ventilation.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby OldmanFCSA on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:31 pm

If you are going to use it as a safe room and a working area, go as big as you can securely lockup. Maybe a dual or triple room arrangement with different layers of security should be considered. Gun safe is final area, second is firearms working area, front is personal area with cots or beds with plumbing for water and stool for extended safe area stays (plus useful for other needs also).If forced to retreat to final room and house is burned down on and around it, an escape tunnel to a concealed surface area (flower bed) should be considered also. Being located in a basement area, cooling is not required, but heating is. Consider using electric heat and blankets instead of creating more access points for water, smoke, or harmful products. Think long-term safety before convenience. Battery backup power for lights and communication needs should be considered - wire this into a solar panel array on roof out of sight to most people, and separate from other electrical power needs. Existing in a absolute dark room will cause you to go batty soon.

Are these ideas extreme? you decide your needs, then lock your self into a dark room and determine if you have a working plan.

Do I have this level of security - no, but I no longer have family to protect other than my wife and I and at our age, we no longer care whether we need to shoot you or not.
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Re: Gun Vault

Postby atomic41 on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:36 am

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Re: Gun Vault

Postby arizona98tj on Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:41 pm

I had a new house built a year ago and it has an ICF basement. During excavation for the basement, we found a lot of clay starting about 4 feet down. As a result of the clay, the floor and walls of the basement were backfilled with a sandy composite material atop of a drain system that empties into a sump. I've yet to ever hear that pump run (yes, it has been tested). Our general contractor said the foam (inside and out) would greatly reduce the moisture/humidity in the basement. I have to agree that it does. I finally broke down mid-summer and purchased a small dehumidifier, rated at 30 pints per day. At the peak of the humidity season, I ran it about 10 to 12 hours a day during a 3~4 week period. When I was down to running it a couple of hours a day, I put it away for the season. In contrast, my sister's older home about a half mile down the road requires a larger dehumidifier to run 24 hrs a day in the basement during the summer months and when you enter it, the basement still feels quite damp.

We didn't install an official safe room but we did have a 10x12 foot addition to the basement put under the mud room entrance to the house. This would typically have been sitting on just a concrete pad. On paper, it is a cold room, root cellar, whatever term you like to use. It too is ICF and was poured at the same time the rest of the basement was done. The house has a high efficiency heat recovery ventilation system (in addition to the normal HVAC). As the home is quite air tight, it exchanges inside air with outside air to help prevent moisture build up particularly during the winter months. It is automatic and runs off of a special thermostat. The cold room has a pair of 4" vents that provides a path for fresh and exhausted air. During the summer, we left the insulated metal door of the cold room open about 3" which kept the humidity essentially equal with the rest of the basement. If we didn't, it took virtually no time for the room's humidity to quickly rise to 90%.

I'm convinced anyone building a safe room or vault would need some type of environment/air processing to keep moisture levels at a reasonable level.
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