I'm discouraged...

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

I'm discouraged...

Postby Lumpy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:23 am

Another mass shooting, stronger calls than ever to make guns less available. Yes, I know every counter-argument; I've made them myself frequently:

  • That someone determined to commit mass murder will find a way
  • that proposals to ban "assault weapons" are ignorant and asinine; that if you did ban "assault weapons" almost as many people could be killed almost as easily with other firearms
  • that statistically, in a nation of over 320 million people death by gun is far less common than most other causes of death; and that even for gun deaths,
    most are one-on-one shootings with handguns
  • that self-defense is a right recognized by the Supreme Court, the keeping and bearing of arms is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, and legislation to restrict firearms would do in violation of these
  • that banning firearms punishes the innocent for the misdeeds of the guilty; and is of limited effectiveness against those prepared to break the law
  • that practically speaking actually getting rid of guns in the USA would be effectively impossible
  • that mass shootings do occur in other nations
  • that media attention has turned committing gun massacres into a fad; not to even mention Hollywood's addiction to violence porn
  • that guns prevent countless assaults and robberies through defense and deterrent
  • that the decay of personal responsibility and the focus on sociological solutions for everything has been counterproductive
  • that greater attention to mental health needs to be addressed
All these and more. And yet-

The fact that anyone with no priors can walk into a gun store and buy a semi-automatic rifle with removable magazines means that it's easier to casually commit gun massacres than if it took serious effort and delay to obtain such a weapon. That in nations where you can't buy guns easily these massacres are vanishingly rare. Anti-gunners scream "this **** doesn't happen in civilized nations; you made this possible!". And figuratively speaking I stand there mute, unable to think of any rebuttal that doesn't sound like a pathetic justification.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Kelor on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:40 am

94% of all mass shootings since 1982 have been perpetrated by people who identify or are registered as a Democrat (taken from the progressive Mother Jones website.

Think about that for a moment. Do you really want to go down a path of background checks based on percentage likelihood of being a perp? The only law which you would have to invent would be for it to be illegal to own a gun if registered as a Democrat.

Statistically, you are safer in Minnesota today than you have been, yet the amount of gun ownership has skyrocketed. The problem isn't the gun. It's clear as day.

Whittle's "State of the Union Address" has gotten some attention the last few days. It offers up some decent points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T-F_zfoDqI
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby jags on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:18 am

If it is so dangerous to be in this country, why are people from every place on the planet willing to risk everything they have to get here? Wouldn't you think it would be the other way around that people would actually flee the United States if it is so dangerous
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:34 am

It really comes down to one question, do you believe in freedom?
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby xd ED on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:47 am

The fact that anyone with no priors can walk into a gun store and buy a semi-automatic rifle with removable magazines means that it's easier to casually commit gun massacres than if it took serious effort and delay to obtain such a weapon


If 'casual(ly), and massacre can be ever be associated with each other, the means of execution is far down on my list of concerns.

It's far easier, and much cheaper to acquire a drum of gasoline, and as many glass bottles as you could haul in a vehicle, than most any firearm.

It seems pretty obvious, from viewing local media, that one reason this latest shooting is receiving the volume, and intensity of attention, is that the astro-turf control groups have been staged in anticipation of such an incident.
From the professionally made signs(with matching jewelry), and "nationwide" student protests appearing simultaneously in the media, one can conclude the aftermath is anything but spontaneous.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby MJY65 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:49 am

There may be some common ground, but neither side trusts the other. You only need to look at the anti-gun comments on news articles to see why we don't. What we view as extreme, they call "a good first step".
Last edited by MJY65 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby unfitmother on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:50 am

Lumpy, going off the assumption you are discouraged about the conversations you've had, and are dreading more conversations like those, I would propose: don't have them. I think it's ok to disagree about the 2A, and anyone worth spending your time talking with won't demonize you for your beliefs/values.

I am very selective about who I tell that I am into rifle marksmanship, and I am very good at bitting my tongue when someone talks about gun-control, so the closest I've come to one of those conversation was with my grandma last week. I was telling her about my plans to do F-Class, she asked why I have rifles, what I replied was "one of my reasons is because I don't think the government should be the only group that knows how to use guns," she said she disagreed, and so we changed the subject to gardening.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby xd ED on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:59 am

MJY65 wrote:There may be some common ground, but neither side trusts the other. You only need to look at the anti-gun comments on news articles to see why we don't.


^^^THIS^^^
There are two groups of people commenting on the anti-gun side:
The professional agitprops, and those who are mostly their useful idiots.

I am convinced that the stategery of the antis is to strike hard while the iron is hot.
In other words, when there is grief, and highly charged emotions, people are susceptible to all manner of suggestion they would otherwise resist.
Since theirs is an emotionally based crusade, they have a short window in which to be most effective.
Thus, fully automatic, assault weapons spewing cop killer bullets being given away by the evil NRA gun corporations become the talking points to be absorbed.

Kind of reminds one of the unscrupulous funeral director, or bible salesman who just happens to show up on the doorstep of someone suffering a recent loss.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Ghost on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:02 pm

I think we should make murder illegal then this wouldn’t happen
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby xd ED on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:04 pm

unfitmother wrote:Lumpy, going off the assumption you are discouraged about the conversations you've had, and are dreading more conversations like those, I would propose: don't have them. I think it's ok to disagree about the 2A, and anyone worth spending your time talking with won't demonize you for your beliefs/values.

I am very selective about who I tell that I am into rifle marksmanship, and I am very good at bitting my tongue when someone talks about gun-control, so the closest I've come to one of those conversation was with my grandma last week. I was telling her about my plans to do F-Class, she asked why I have rifles, what I replied was "one of my reasons is because I don't think the government should be the only group that knows how to use guns," she said she disagreed, and so we changed the subject to gardening.



I'm fortunate in that regard with my family, but yes, with some of my associates, it's completely nonproductive to the relationship, and the cause.
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I'm discouraged...

Postby sprigfan on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:46 pm

Democrat, Republican, Independent, whatever. Some things in this country obviously need to change. This happens far more frequently here than any other country on earth (mass murders in schools). Why is that? Are we just nuts? Do we really suck at parenting that much? Are all of the other countries more religious than we are?

I'm discouraged too...
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby MJY65 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:49 pm

sprigfan wrote:
Are we just nuts?

Probably

Do we really suck at parenting that much?

Yes

Are all of the other countries more religious than we are?

Not at all. Most of Europe is more secular

I'm discouraged too...
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Ghost on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 pm

Image
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby yukonjasper on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:44 pm

The sad part is that Sane, conscientious, lawful and responsible gun owners are driven underground in the theater of public opinion. The only "gun" related voices that most Americans here are those of criminals and the NRA - so the two start to become synonymous.

I don't blame you for "tuckng it in" and not confronting people, but it really isn't what the 2nd Amendment defense needs. The more people see the Normal people who live in the gun culture and the reasons why we own guns the higher the discussion gets elevated. We are losing the propaganda war because we believe that, just by being the silent majority, that our rights will not be infringed upon. I don't think we have that luxury. The issues seem to be image related and I think those who are most vocal for gun rights tend to be the guys who walk down main street with a loaded AR on his back which isn't entirely helpful. To a lot of the uninitiated and those who are not currently comfortable with gun ownership, most of what they have seen as representation of gun owners are ninja operators, gung ho ex-military, criminals and mass shooters. A Public Relations person, would you want that to be the face of the movement? They have kids and soccer moms crying on TV, we have Ninja Operators wearing MilSurp clothing ranting and raving about conspiracy theories.

We could learn a lot from the LGBT community and some of the techniques they employed to get people more accepting of their lifestyle. They challenged a lot of the stereotypes and built coalitions. Granted they had mainstream media, the entertainment industry etc. backing them all the way, but as a "minority" who broke through and has become more visible and accepted, they had a hill to climb. We need more average Joe/Jane to step out of the gun ownership closet. I'm not sure my comparison is altogether appropriate, but that is the way I see it - IMO.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby BigBlue on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:55 pm

Yukonjasper: I think you're right that image is an issue. If we had more visibility of things like HS trap league activity, shooting range fun, etc. it would help 'normalize' things.

Sprigfan: Yes, a huge portion of this country are just really, really poor parents. Society needs to change.
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