I'm discouraged...

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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:51 am

INOR wrote:And none of that has any bearing. Just because he's an anti doesn't mean the right should smear him with falsehoods and conspiracy theory propaganda. His dad being retired FBI isn't relevant. That's as silly as Trump saying the FBI missed this because they were so focused on HIM and russia (which Sanders had to walk back yesterday, as she so often does for his childishly foolish and patently false tweets). Utterly ridiculous notion when the FBI has over 35000 employees and the agents that should have investigated this fully (and which clearly dropped the ball) are so far removed from anything Russia. To be clear, there should have only been two agents involved in investigating Cruz's YouTube threat. One, in the jurisdiction where it was reported (the YouTuber's location) and one in Cruz's jurisdiction. Two agents screwed the pooch by not following through appropriately. But somehow that gets translated into the entirety of the FBI and it's purported "anti-trump" culture as it fits nicely into Trump's narrative.


????? Do you know how the interwebs works?
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby INOR on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:57 am

So, we're supposed to be ok with perpetuating falsehoods, H&H? hmmm....I remember when the right and conservatives used to be the party of facts and truth. Now it's turning itself into the party of conspiracy, falsehoods, and propaganda. In my view, it's only hurting the cause to spread falsehoods and conspiracy theories.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby BigBlue on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 am

INOR wrote:And none of that has any bearing. Just because he's an anti doesn't mean the right should smear him with falsehoods and conspiracy theory propaganda. His dad being retired FBI isn't relevant.


Because the left doesn't ever put out any false news or present stories in a slanted and biased light to sell their cause, truth be damned.

Yes, I agree anybody making crap up or reporting with a misleading slant is bad. But sometimes the moral high ground doesn't win.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby unfitmother on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:08 am

yukonjasper wrote:Yes, we are losing the propaganda war...


I asked the wrong question. What I want to know is what is the "propaganda war?" Judging by the amount of of hyperbole in your answer, it's probably good for selling NRA memberships and pink hats. /snark

I don't think you're wrong, but the optimist in me thinks that framing any part of what's going on as a "war" is harmful to achieving any kind of accord in this country.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:17 am

INOR wrote:So, we're supposed to be ok with perpetuating falsehoods, H&H? hmmm....I remember when the right and conservatives used to be the party of facts and truth. Now it's turning itself into the party of conspiracy, falsehoods, and propaganda. In my view, it's only hurting the cause to spread falsehoods and conspiracy theories.


Where did I say that???? Whew, I have said some crazy things in my day, don't remember that one though.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby BigBlue on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:27 am

unfitmother wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Yes, we are losing the propaganda war...


I asked the wrong question. What I want to know is what is the "propaganda war?" Judging by the amount of of hyperbole in your answer, it's probably good for selling NRA memberships and pink hats. /snark

I don't think you're wrong, but the optimist in me thinks that framing any part of what's going on as a "war" is harmful to achieving any kind of accord in this country.


How do you think the anti-gun folks view the situation?
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby yukonjasper on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:37 am

unfitmother wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Yes, we are losing the propaganda war...


I asked the wrong question. What I want to know is what is the "propaganda war?" Judging by the amount of of hyperbole in your answer, it's probably good for selling NRA memberships and pink hats. /snark

I don't think you're wrong, but the optimist in me thinks that framing any part of what's going on as a "war" is harmful to achieving any kind of accord in this country.


Yes we are at war with the liberal ideal that wishes to extinguish the 2nd Amendment right. Although you can recoil at the use of the word "WAR", there are many meanings that don't include bloodshed and physical conflict. If that choice of wording is disturbing, feel free to suggest another way to describe the struggle for public opinion such that we can stem the tide of the currently pervasive attitude that the 2nd Amendment needs to go away or severely infringed. If the NRA is the strongest standard bearer for the ideals that support the 2nd Amendment, so be it. Any other organization - Civil Liberties Union(ya right)- that wants to step up in its defense would be fine with me. We just need some organization to be committed and energetic enough to match the emotion from the other side.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Ghost on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:41 am

INOR wrote:And none of that has any bearing. Just because he's an anti doesn't mean the right should smear him with falsehoods and conspiracy theory propaganda. His dad being retired FBI isn't relevant. That's as silly as Trump saying the FBI missed this because they were so focused on HIM and russia (which Sanders had to walk back yesterday, as she so often does for his childishly foolish and patently false tweets). Utterly ridiculous notion when the FBI has over 35000 employees and the agents that should have investigated this fully (and which clearly dropped the ball) are so far removed from anything Russia. To be clear, there should have only been two agents involved in investigating Cruz's YouTube threat. One, in the jurisdiction where it was reported (the YouTuber's location) and one in Cruz's jurisdiction. Two agents screwed the pooch by not following through appropriately. But somehow that gets translated into the entirety of the FBI and it's purported "anti-trump" culture as it fits nicely into Trump's narrative.

My statement was that it was convenient. I think this kid is quite interesting. He’ll be perfect at CNN someday.

As far as the FBI. There were two known reports on him. Not just the YouTube comment. Someone who knew him reported him Jan 5th 2018 as wanting to shoot up a school.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby yukonjasper on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:20 am

I will add to my above comment that I don't think an "accord" can be reached. The 2nd Amendment is absolute and explicit:

[b][/A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.b]

Any modification of that ideal has been an attempt to appease the assault on that absolute and explicit phrase. The only "accord" that can be reached is to continue to capitulate and cede modifications. As I have said elsewhere on this board, if I thought the opposition would stop at Bump Stocks, I'd take that deal in a second. Problem is we have a long history of incrementally whittling away at the 2nd Amendment.

Please convince me that I'm wrong and unduly paranoid.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby yukonjasper on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:23 am

As with the time period that the 2nd Amendment was written, the citizenry is the last line of defense against Governmental Tyranny. The Founding Fathers understood that and purposely wanted to ensure that the Citizenry would always have the opportunity to resist.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Jack's My dog on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:34 am

yukonjasper wrote:As with the time period that the 2nd Amendment was written, the citizenry is the last line of defense against Governmental Tyranny. The Founding Fathers understood that and purposely wanted to ensure that the Citizenry would always have the opportunity to resist.


The irony of #the resistance fighting to make sure only Donny's government has "assault weapons", is as the kids say "Amazeballs". :roll:
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby yukonjasper on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:56 am

Not following you. If the entire citizenry has the Right to Bear arms, the diversity currently represented in this country would have equal access to that Right. Now if someone passes a law that indicates only registered Republicans are allowed to own weapons, then I can see your point.

Let's break it down:
A well regulated Militia -- read - you and me and basically everyone we consider a full fledged, voting age, adult in good standing - no restrictions on political party mentioned.

being necessary to the security of a free State, -- read - so the above mentioned citizenry has the ability to resist tyranny and injustice from an over bearing - non- free State (capital letter State meaning the political union represented by the Constitution et al.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, -- read - Citizenry as defined above get to own guns and get to use them to Secure a Free State as stated above.

shall not be infringed. -- not sure much is needed here - means no restrictions - as the kids today would say it "drop the mic".

I don't understand how there is any discussion about only a certain segment of the population is allow these rights. If there were, that would be an infringement. We do make distinctions for those who have proven they are not interested in a Free Society by illegal activities or because they are not competent.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Ghost on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:03 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Not following you. If the entire citizenry has the Right to Bear arms, the diversity currently represented in this country would have equal access to that Right. Now if someone passes a law that indicates only registered Republicans are allowed to own weapons, then I can see your point.

Let's break it down:
A well regulated Militia -- read - you and me and basically everyone we consider a full fledged, voting age, adult in good standing - no restrictions on political party mentioned.

being necessary to the security of a free State, -- read - so the above mentioned citizenry has the ability to resist tyranny and injustice from an over bearing - non- free State (capital letter State meaning the political union represented by the Constitution et al.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, -- read - Citizenry as defined above get to own guns and get to use them to Secure a Free State as stated above.

shall not be infringed. -- not sure much is needed here - means no restrictions - as the kids today would say it "drop the mic".

I don't understand how there is any discussion about only a certain segment of the population is allow these rights. If there were, that would be an infringement. We do make distinctions for those who have proven they are not interested in a Free Society by illegal activities or because they are not competent.

I think JMD is referring to the fact that the same people who want to disarm the citizenry are the people who scream at the sky in anger, opposing the person who would then be in charge of an unchecked government. In other words they hate Trump so lets give him complete control.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Jack's My dog on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Not following you. If the entire citizenry has the Right to Bear arms, the diversity currently represented in this country would have equal access to that Right. Now if someone passes a law that indicates only registered Republicans are allowed to own weapons, then I can see your point.

Let's break it down:
A well regulated Militia -- read - you and me and basically everyone we consider a full fledged, voting age, adult in good standing - no restrictions on political party mentioned.

being necessary to the security of a free State, -- read - so the above mentioned citizenry has the ability to resist tyranny and injustice from an over bearing - non- free State (capital letter State meaning the political union represented by the Constitution et al.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, -- read - Citizenry as defined above get to own guns and get to use them to Secure a Free State as stated above.

shall not be infringed. -- not sure much is needed here - means no restrictions - as the kids today would say it "drop the mic".

I don't understand how there is any discussion about only a certain segment of the population is allow these rights. If there were, that would be an infringement. We do make distinctions for those who have proven they are not interested in a Free Society by illegal activities or because they are not competent.


I think you missed my point, which could definitely be my bad, allow me to pick up said mic. :D Essentially what I am saying is "the left" which often uses the Hastag "The resistance" views Mr. Trump to be an evil tyrant,which the 2nd is meant to guard against. There is substantial irony in the fact they are fighting so hard to give up their 2a rights to someone/or a government they view as an evil tyrant.

If the entire citizenry has the Right to Bear arms, the diversity currently represented in this country would have equal access to that Right. Agreed.
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Re: I'm discouraged...

Postby Jack's My dog on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:16 pm

Ghost wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Not following you. If the entire citizenry has the Right to Bear arms, the diversity currently represented in this country would have equal access to that Right. Now if someone passes a law that indicates only registered Republicans are allowed to own weapons, then I can see your point.

Let's break it down:
A well regulated Militia -- read - you and me and basically everyone we consider a full fledged, voting age, adult in good standing - no restrictions on political party mentioned.

being necessary to the security of a free State, -- read - so the above mentioned citizenry has the ability to resist tyranny and injustice from an over bearing - non- free State (capital letter State meaning the political union represented by the Constitution et al.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, -- read - Citizenry as defined above get to own guns and get to use them to Secure a Free State as stated above.

shall not be infringed. -- not sure much is needed here - means no restrictions - as the kids today would say it "drop the mic".

I don't understand how there is any discussion about only a certain segment of the population is allow these rights. If there were, that would be an infringement. We do make distinctions for those who have proven they are not interested in a Free Society by illegal activities or because they are not competent.

I think JMD is referring to the fact that the same people who want to disarm the citizenry are the people who scream at the sky in anger, opposing the person who would then be in charge of an unchecked government. In other words they hate Trump so lets give him complete control.


YUP.
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