Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby photogpat on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:10 am

BigBlue wrote:This discussion of 30-30 brings up a question I've always had about the round... Why is this almost universally a lever-action round and not found in bolt action rifles? It seems well regarded as a deer round and pretty popular so I'd think someone would make bolt actions out of it.

As a side note, the one gun I want from my dad's hunting stuff is a Winchester '94 30-30. It's what he hunted with way back when he went deer hunting. I hope to someday get to add that to my collection. Perhaps it is because it is the one gun of his I never shot when I was a kid.


Savage made a bolt action .30-30 -- the 340...then rebranded as the Springfield 800-series too. 4 round box magazine.

I've reloaded mine with Speer 125gr TNT's and saw a marked improvement in accuracy at 100yds.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby hard h2o on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:19 am

BigBlue wrote:This discussion of 30-30 brings up a question I've always had about the round... Why is this almost universally a lever-action round and not found in bolt action rifles? It seems well regarded as a deer round and pretty popular so I'd think someone would make bolt actions out of it.

As a side note, the one gun I want from my dad's hunting stuff is a Winchester '94 30-30. It's what he hunted with way back when he went deer hunting. I hope to someday get to add that to my collection. Perhaps it is because it is the one gun of his I never shot when I was a kid.


Rimmed cartridges are harder to make work in a non tubular magazine or a single shot.

Also the .30-30, due to the tubular magazine and bullet tip to primer orientation, is generally loaded with round or flat nose projectiles.

Lever guns are generally less accurate than bolt guns. Leverguns are generally thought of as close range brush guns. So it seems that bullets used in .30-30 ammo are not usually your best and most optimized for accuracy. Long range ballistics suffer as a result so it becomes almost self fulfilling that the .30-30 is relegated to the levergun.

Nosler used to make a 170 grain, flat nose, solid base, boat tail that was lights out from my Montgomery Wards (Mossberg 472) .30-30. Pushed with a load of 3031 it was very accurate.

It is probably more cost efficient to manufacture rifles chambered for rimless cartridges. Also not to difficult to find a cartridge that can be used in the same scenario as a .30-30 with better interior and exterior ballistics. Makes more sense than throwing money and resources at a .30-30 bolt gun that is only going to appeal to a small segment of the gun buying public.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby hard h2o on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:20 am

It was the USA's first small-bore, sporting rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Ghost on Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:24 pm

Thread is fascinating
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Drizzle on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:01 am

C&Arsenal on Youtube has a fantastic series on weapons of WWI describing development, use, disassembly, shooting, etc. Included are things like the Maxim, Lee Enfield, Springfield, Luger, Arisaka and many others. Including the Winchester 92, 94 and 95 rifles, used by various countries in WWI like France and Russia, although not much as frontline weapons. The research done to present each weapon's development cycle in amazing, and well presented by Othais and Mae. Give it a try if you're interested in older weapons development.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Holland&Holland on Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:36 pm

hard h2o wrote:It was the USA's first small-bore, sporting rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder.

Exactly. It is like a used car salesman saying he has never heard of a Ford.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby smurfman on Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:51 am

In addition to the Savage/Stevens/Springfield series of bolt actions chambered for the 30/30 there is the Winchester 54 and the Remington 788 were also chambered for that cartridge. I've had at least one of each but am down to a Savage at the moment. I was offered too much for the others to keep.

As for the shop employee, that is not uncommon these days. In the brief time I've been working in sporting goods I've seen the same thing though regarding 8x57/8mm Mauser, 7x57/7mm Mauser, 45 Colt/45 Long Colt, 9x19/Luger/Parabellum, and even 357 mag/38 Special usage. That is not counting what customers bring up, just what I've seen or heard from coworker's.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby mrp on Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:59 am

xd ED wrote:My experience has been that you're absolutely correct about big box stores...of any stripe.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ECQwLdYobM
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:46 am

mrp wrote:
xd ED wrote:My experience has been that you're absolutely correct about big box stores...of any stripe.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ECQwLdYobM


Ok, and point being?
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Bessy on Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:37 pm

hard h2o wrote:
It is probably more cost efficient to manufacture rifles chambered for rimless cartridges. Also not to difficult to find a cartridge that can be used in the same scenario as a .30-30 with better interior and exterior ballistics. Makes more sense than throwing money and resources at a .30-30 bolt gun that is only going to appeal to a small segment of the gun buying public.


Not trying to be pedantic, but in general it's easier to make a rimmed cartridge work than a rimless. With a rimmed cartridges the headspace is set off the rim...which is easier to do. With rimless cartridges the headspace is set off the shoulder... which also requires better quality control with your ammo supply. If you ever have the opportunity to shoot 303, or 8mm label, you will see the chambers in those guns are usually overly generous to accommodate lack of quality control in the ammo at the time. The problem with rimmed cartridges is that they don't work as well from a box magazine and are prone to rim lock.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby hard h2o on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:33 pm

Bessy wrote:
hard h2o wrote:
It is probably more cost efficient to manufacture rifles chambered for rimless cartridges. Also not to difficult to find a cartridge that can be used in the same scenario as a .30-30 with better interior and exterior ballistics. Makes more sense than throwing money and resources at a .30-30 bolt gun that is only going to appeal to a small segment of the gun buying public.


Not trying to be pedantic, but in general it's easier to make a rimmed cartridge work than a rimless. With a rimmed cartridges the headspace is set off the rim...which is easier to do. With rimless cartridges the headspace is set off the shoulder... which also requires better quality control with your ammo supply. If you ever have the opportunity to shoot 303, or 8mm label, you will see the chambers in those guns are usually overly generous to accommodate lack of quality control in the ammo at the time. The problem with rimmed cartridges is that they don't work as well from a box magazine and are prone to rim lock.


Easier to headspace a rimmed cartridge. A bit more difficult to make a rimmed cartridge work in a box magazine. That is what I meant. Tubular magazines, single and double guns shine with rimmed cartridges. Box magazines not so much.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:14 pm

hard h2o wrote:
Bessy wrote:
hard h2o wrote:
It is probably more cost efficient to manufacture rifles chambered for rimless cartridges. Also not to difficult to find a cartridge that can be used in the same scenario as a .30-30 with better interior and exterior ballistics. Makes more sense than throwing money and resources at a .30-30 bolt gun that is only going to appeal to a small segment of the gun buying public.


Not trying to be pedantic, but in general it's easier to make a rimmed cartridge work than a rimless. With a rimmed cartridges the headspace is set off the rim...which is easier to do. With rimless cartridges the headspace is set off the shoulder... which also requires better quality control with your ammo supply. If you ever have the opportunity to shoot 303, or 8mm label, you will see the chambers in those guns are usually overly generous to accommodate lack of quality control in the ammo at the time. The problem with rimmed cartridges is that they don't work as well from a box magazine and are prone to rim lock.


Easier to headspace a rimmed cartridge. A bit more difficult to make a rimmed cartridge work in a box magazine. That is what I meant. Tubular magazines, single and double guns shine with rimmed cartridges. Box magazines not so much.


Someone forgot to tell that to the Russians and the tons of Fleet Farm customers a few years ago ;)
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby hard h2o on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:10 am

hard h2o wrote:
Easier to headspace a rimmed cartridge. A bit more difficult to make a rimmed cartridge work in a box magazine. That is what I meant. Tubular magazines, single and double guns shine with rimmed cartridges. Box magazines not so much.


Someone forgot to tell that to the Russians and the tons of Fleet Farm customers a few years ago ;)[/quote]

Is it as easy to get a rimmed cartridge to work in a box magazine firearm as it is a rimless?

I understand there are exceptions.

Why adopt a rimmed cartridge that is generally loaded with flat or round nose bullets into a platform that can readily accept options that will bring better feeding and balistics to the table?
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby crbutler on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:31 am

It isn’t easy to make it work well.

But it can be done.

Just because the moisin and the SMLE were designed before the turn of the last century doesn’t mean it didn’t take a lot of work to get the design right.

Those old fellows were just as smart as our current lot, they just didn’t have the equipment and their work to use as a reference.

I will note that in the quest to make an absolutely reliable bolt gun, there were some compromises made in those rifles that make them not as useful for modern use of a bolt gun.
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Re: Gun store owners, please train your staff.

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:28 pm

hard h2o wrote:
hard h2o wrote:
Easier to headspace a rimmed cartridge. A bit more difficult to make a rimmed cartridge work in a box magazine. That is what I meant. Tubular magazines, single and double guns shine with rimmed cartridges. Box magazines not so much.


Someone forgot to tell that to the Russians and the tons of Fleet Farm customers a few years ago ;)


Is it as easy to get a rimmed cartridge to work in a box magazine firearm as it is a rimless?

I understand there are exceptions.

Why adopt a rimmed cartridge that is generally loaded with flat or round nose bullets into a platform that can readily accept options that will bring better feeding and balistics to the table?[/quote]

9.99 per box on sale or less comes to mind.
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