Anti-gun people are different

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Anti-gun people are different

Postby Lumpy on Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:11 pm

I used to think that people in favor of gun control fell into a few logical categories, which were at least understandable:
  • badly misinformed about guns
  • not thinking through faulty logic
  • radical leftist progressives
  • faux pacifists
  • literal hoplophobes
But the more I try to answer anti-gun arguments (and therefore at least comprehend where they're coming from), the more I'm developing a strange impression that they just aren't on the same wavelength as pro-gun people. It's like trying to debate a flat earther or a sovereign citizen; we just don't process evidence and logic in the same manner. The gun/anti-gun debate is like putting a pre-Civil War plantation owner and an abolitionist together and trying to get them to find some point of agreement on slavery; or Pro-Life/Pro-Choice advocates talking completely past each other.

This disturbs me because it suggests that at some point further discussion will be dismissed as futile and it will become simply a matter of one side winning and the other losing- and I'm nowhere as confident as I would like to be that the pro-gun side will win.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby Grayskies on Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:21 pm

Lumpy wrote:This disturbs me because it suggests that at some point further discussion will be dismissed as futile and it will become simply a matter of one side winning and the other losing- and I'm nowhere as confident as I would like to be that the pro-gun side will win.

The left was there decades ago, I discussed this with dems 20 some years ago, countered all their arguments, all that happened was the dems brain seemed to reset and they would say "guns are bad!" and stop talking.

They have been fed guns are evil in school, the media and the leftist politicians for most if not all of my life time.

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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Once you understand that the issue really is not guns but the power to control you, then you will understand where they are coming from and why they need no logic to their argument.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby linksep on Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:08 am

Holland&Holland wrote:Once you understand that the issue really is not guns but the power to control you, then you will understand where they are coming from and why they need no logic to their argument.


I'm pretty sure 99.9% of them don't know they are useful-idiots. I'm pretty sure even half or more of the most radical freshman congress-people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that they are useful-idiots to Pelosi, the Clintons, George Soros, etc.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby BigBlue on Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:34 am

linksep wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:Once you understand that the issue really is not guns but the power to control you, then you will understand where they are coming from and why they need no logic to their argument.


I'm pretty sure 99.9% of them don't know they are useful-idiots. I'm pretty sure even half or more of the most radical freshman congress-people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that they are useful-idiots to Pelosi, the Clintons, George Soros, etc.


Indeed. The vast majority of people you encounter on the street or in these groups like Demanding Moms Want Action are in it for the feels. They don't like hearing about violence and they buy into the 'guns are bad; get rid of guns' mantra and they _want_ to fix things. They go with the anti-gun playbook because they don't have an alternative and because they are fed that message from all around them: the media, their party, etc. "Guns are the problem and these violent situations will go away if there are not so many guns." It's only a small fraction of the anti-gunners that are in on the 'power to control you' aspect of it. As for why all these useful idiots "need no logic to their argument", it's because they are emotional. They go with what they feel, not what is rational. Logic is incompatible with an emotional reaction.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby xd ED on Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:01 am

BigBlue wrote:
Indeed. The vast majority of people you encounter on the street or in these groups like Demanding Moms Want Action are in it for the feels. They don't like hearing about violence and they buy into the 'guns are bad; get rid of guns' mantra and they _want_ to fix things. They go with the anti-gun playbook because they don't have an alternative and because they are fed that message from all around them: the media, their party, etc. "Guns are the problem and these violent situations will go away if there are not so many guns." It's only a small fraction of the anti-gunners that are in on the 'power to control you' aspect of it. As for why all these useful idiots "need no logic to their argument", it's because they are emotional. They go with what they feel, not what is rational. Logic is incompatible with an emotional reaction.


I had it once explained that some people are so desperate to sustain their 'illusion of invulnerability' - being unable to accept the fragility, and uncertainty of life, that they will blindly cling to anything that allows perpetuation of the belief they can be truly safe and secure.
Couple that with the typical urban existence that is not knowledgable of, or have positive interaction with firearms, throw in terms like 'weapons of war', bombardment from a one-sided media, and you have a flock of 'tools', in the most literal sense of the word.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby yukonjasper on Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:40 am

We are in an echo chamber. The question should be how can we get the contrasting message out to the masses and interrupt the constant drone from the antis?
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby xd ED on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:01 pm

yukonjasper wrote:We are in an echo chamber. The question should be how can we get the contrasting message out to the masses and interrupt the constant drone from the antis?


I think that does happen, albeit on a small scale compared to our opposition, which is joined at the hip to the mass media.

Even the most skeptical people who attend 'Women on Target' or similar events, come away with a different view of firearms.
But you're quite correct. That is a question to ask in perpetuity.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby BigBlue on Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:03 pm

yukonjasper wrote:We are in an echo chamber. The question should be how can we get the contrasting message out to the masses and interrupt the constant drone from the antis?


That is the 42 dollar question...

The bigger issue is the odd nature of the targeting of all the messages. Anti-gunners and their media friends target their minions and the uninformed with their push for new restrictions. Gun owners (gun rights folks) don't have a general need to push any message except as a defense to the antis. i.e. We'd have no need for doing any messaging if they weren't trying to misguidedly take away peoples' rights ("Go away and focus on the source of the problem and not guns.") But since we're the target of their angst we have to do something. Purely being defensive and protecting our rights seems to be a losing proposition though and we may have to go on the 'offensive' by trying to present a more sensible and useful approach to the masses to counter the bad suggestions.

So how to we, MN and national gun rights groups, bring on a publicity campaign in a way that can effectively change the focus?
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby yukonjasper on Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:00 pm

It would take hiring a PR firm to help develop and coordinate the message. If the NRA wasn't paying attorneys to battle the many legal entanglements, they could pivot to addressing a media campaign. It could be done on a more regional level but either way it would take $$$$$ Bloomberg /Soros kind of money to do it correctly.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby xd ED on Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:37 pm

A head to head PR war isn't going to win the day.
Besides all the monied special interests, the MSM is doing it for free.
Most of 'our' victories have been won asymmetrically; small group, grass roots efforts...electing people, and holding their feet to the fire.
Granted the NRA could do its part, but then again, anything they do will be dismissed as being...the NRA.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby Bearcatrp on Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:47 pm

They will change their minds if chit hits the fan and they want protection. By then it’s to late for them.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby xd ED on Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:51 pm

Bearcatrp wrote:They will change their minds if chit hits the fan and they want protection. By then it’s to late for them.


Good Point.

I'm pretty sure the video of the kid getting stomped in dntn MPLS, and the rash of shootings in St Paul will be responsible of at least a few people getting a PTC.

And that behavior shows no sign of relenting
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby yukonjasper on Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:09 pm

I understand there has been a surge of permits among women in the areas most recently highlighted in recent news stories about violent crime. After all guns are a great force multiplier.
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Re: Anti-gun people are different

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:42 pm

linksep wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:Once you understand that the issue really is not guns but the power to control you, then you will understand where they are coming from and why they need no logic to their argument.


I'm pretty sure 99.9% of them don't know they are useful-idiots. I'm pretty sure even half or more of the most radical freshman congress-people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that they are useful-idiots to Pelosi, the Clintons, George Soros, etc.


I would like to think that, but I am pretty certain your math is off. There are more than you think who are actively trying to grab power and be your overlord.
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