Minnesota Pistol Length

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Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby LumberZach on Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:19 pm

Can someone remind me what the legal requirements of a pistol are regarding the overall length specifically for Minnesota? If I build an AR style pistol and OAL goes over 26” is it no longer a pistol? Or does the barrel under 16” keep it a pistol?

In other words, if I were to build an AR pistol with a 16” barrel and a shoulder brace, would it still be a pistol under legal requirements? Or does MN statue turn it into a firearm?


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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby prushin on Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:13 pm

Federally...

If the lower is listed in the sale paperwork as "other" or "pistol" you can build a pistol or firearm with it. Rifle listing makes it a rifle and it stays a rifle forever. If it goes over 26", measured from the shortest position of the brace (folded or completely collapsed) to the end of the barrel (not including removable muzzle device), it is a firearm and not a pistol.

If it has never had a "Stock" attached to it or been sold as a rifle lower, it is either a pistol or a firearm. Barrel length doesn't factor in on the federal definitions. They are only looking for OAL, lower classification from the manufacturer, or brace/stock attachment.



Minnesota law has not caught up with the world of AR pistols and still lists a pistol as being less than 26" overall. They also list the maximum length of a pistol barrel as 16". Minnesota does not give any direction on taking measurements. So, you might be able to argue it out in court. Nobody wants to go that far.

The short answer is...Keep the whole thing under 26" OAL and with a barrel less than 16" to be safe in MN.
Last edited by prushin on Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:26 pm

prushin wrote:Federally...

If the lower is listed in the sale paperwork as "other" or "pistol" you can build a pistol or firearm with it. Rifle listing makes it a rifle and it stays a rifle forever. If it goes over 26", measured from the shortest position of the brace (folded or completely collapsed) to the end of the barrel (not including removable muzzle device), it is a firearm and not a pistol.

If it has never had a "Stock" attached to it or been sold as a rifle lower, it is either a pistol or a firearm. Barrel length doesn't factor in on the federal definitions. They are only looking for OAL, lower classification from the manufacturer, or brace/stock attachment.



Minnesota law has not caught up with the world of AR pistols and still lists a pistol as being less than 26" overall. They also list the maximum length of a pistol barrel as 16". Minnesota does not give any direction on taking measurements. So, you might be able to argue it out in court. Nobody wants to go that far.

The short answer is...Keep the whole thing under 26" OAL and with a barrel less than 26" to be safe in MN.


This. But I think you meant to say keep the barrel less than 16" in order to not have to argue with the state of MN.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby prushin on Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:29 pm

DOH!!! Corrected.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby CZscout on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:39 pm

This is the most correct and concise thread I have ever come across on this subject for MN.

Thank you!
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby samginko on Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:30 am

I thought max length less than 26" or barrel length less than 16"?



624.712 DEFINITIONS.
Subdivision 1.Scope. As used in sections 624.711 to 624.717, the terms defined in this section shall have the meanings given them.
Subd. 2.Pistol. "Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle (1) from which may be fired or ejected one or more solid projectiles by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances; or (2) for which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, air or other gas, or vapor.
"Pistol" does not include a device firing or ejecting a shot measuring .18 of an inch, or less, in diameter and commonly known as a "BB gun," a scuba gun, a stud gun or nail gun used in the construction industry or children's pop guns or toys.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby samginko on Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 am

I've been in the rabbit hole reading all the threads regarding what is "pistol" in Minnesota. I need couple of clarification.

Is a firearm with barrel less than 16" but oal longer than 26" considered to be a pistol in minnesota?

Is a firearm with barrel less than 16" and oal less than 26" before the installation of a brace considered to be a pistol in minnesota? (Yes from general consensus)

But, what if that brace is installed using a screw like a shockwave brace which makes the oal more than 26"?
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby prushin on Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:48 pm

According to the ATF, Minnesota has never officially defined "Firearm". The only guidance the ATF has received was that for the purposes of legality MN would recognize the ATF definition of a "Firearm" classification.

The guidance I received from the ATF was that MN "COULD" prosecute if an AR was over 26" and had a barrel less than 16". They advised that, to avoid the possibility of prosecution, If it has a pistol brace...keep it under 26" OAL.

ATF did clarify that MN has used the ATF standard for measurement in the past. So barrels are measured without removable muzzle devices and OAL is measured to the shortest position of adjustable stocks/braces.

So per the ATF if MN wants to come after you for an AR over 26" OAL with a barrel less than 16", they could do it.

Barrel shorter than 16" and less than 26" AOL (measured to the shortest position of the brace) is a pistol in MN.

The only thing my ATF contact could say about the ShockWave was that they had received inquiries regarding whether or not it was a stock or a brace. They are currently classifying it as a brace. So, less than 16" barrel and longer than 26" OAL would be a SBS in MN. He said that he couldn't find any record of someone being prosecuted for a "Firearm" in MN. He also said that if ATF was called regarding a "Firearm" case from MN they would probably just tell them that it was federally recognized as being a legal weapon.

He said about 20 different times that all this could change at any time and that MN could prosecute using their own definitions without any input from ATF. He'd never heard of it happening and usually when a MN prosecutor gets an NFA case they just let the feds charge them and prosecute.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:46 pm

Was under the impression of barrel is less than 16 inches but OAL was above 26 inches, it was a AOW.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby prushin on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:16 pm

Was under the impression of barrel is less than 16 inches but OAL was above 26 inches, it was a AOW.


Nope unless its got a can, a giggle switch or a stock they are calling them firearms now....If the receiver was never a long gun in any fashion.
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:25 pm

prushin wrote:
Was under the impression of barrel is less than 16 inches but OAL was above 26 inches, it was a AOW.


Nope unless its got a can, a giggle switch or a stock they are calling them firearms now....If the receiver was never a long gun in any fashion.

I have a brace on my 12.5 inch 308. Measures 27 inches. I have a sandman -s I share with different rifles. Lower was registered other.
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Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby LumberZach on Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:15 am

Bearcatrp wrote:
prushin wrote:
Was under the impression of barrel is less than 16 inches but OAL was above 26 inches, it was a AOW.


Nope unless its got a can, a giggle switch or a stock they are calling them firearms now....If the receiver was never a long gun in any fashion.

I have a brace on my 12.5 inch 308. Measures 27 inches. I have a sandman -s I share with different rifles. Lower was registered other.


Awesome! Do you have any velocity data on 308 from a 12.5?

I hate to dig up an old beaten horse like this. But hey, the forum is dead anyway lately haha.

Primarily, my interest is in building a “handgun” for deer hunting in the southern Minnesota zone that is as perfectly defined as a handgun as possible while also being as ethical as possible. Ideally, it’ll be ethical out to 250-300 yards as well.

Current considerations is actually to build from a bolt action such as a Remington 700, a folding brace, and about a 14” barrel. That should keep under 26”.


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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby Bearcatrp on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:21 pm

2407 fps shooting 168 A Max using 8208 powder. Chrono data from last year with my lab radar..
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby andrewP on Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:30 pm

LumberZach wrote:Current considerations is actually to build from a bolt action such as a Remington 700, a folding brace, and about a 14” barrel. That should keep under 26”.


Is it even possible to acquire a Remington 700 action that hasn't been designated as "rifle" from the get-go? (I have no idea, but I can imagine this being a significant stumbling block for this ides.)
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Re: Minnesota Pistol Length

Postby Ironbear on Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:10 am

andrewP wrote:Is it even possible to acquire a Remington 700 action that hasn't been designated as "rifle" from the get-go? (I have no idea, but I can imagine this being a significant stumbling block for this ides.)

The long and short of it is... yes.

Long
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020195838
Short
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020196633?pid=1020196633
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