Technical Review (of LCP and P3AT issues)

[onebohemian]

This is long, but oh well.

Although I've posted this in Product Reviews, I think we really need a separate Tech forum for people to post information they have learned, implemented, etc. about smithing on and fixing problems on various guns. There’s a ton of experiences and knowledge in this group, related to many different guns. Having it in one place here will be helpful to newcomers that are thinking about buying the same guns. Obviously, the information posted always comes with the disclaimer that anyone doing their own gunsmithing or following what someone else has posted does so at their own risk.

There are forums across the net dedicated to particular guns, but I find the substantive information on those to typically be scattered among many irrelevant posts. I wrote the following in a few different posts in response to a topic someone posted at the other site comparing the Ruger LCP and the Kel-Tec P3AT. (For those of you on both sites, my apologies for the repetition.) The following, however, is an example of what I think would be helpful to post under a Technical topic so that folks looking for information in the future on either gun have some technical information as a foundation from which to continue their research.

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P3AT v. LCP: some points of interest.

Fluff and Buffs.

The KT often needs a slight "fluff and buff" out of the box due to less refined manufacturing, but that's not so much of a surprise for a gun that you buy for $260.00 new on sale at times. It’s primarily a little sanding in the right spots to get rid of edges, etc. that slow down the cycle of the slide. There are great instructions available on the keltec forums on where to check and polish. Even the LCP could probably use a slight fluff and buff to make sure there aren't any left over edges to cause hang-ups and slow slide cycling.

Parts.

KT is known to ship (sometimes free) parts via U.S. mail to customers who call with orders for repair. Parts you want to buy for spares are very inexpensive too. Ruger’s parts are much higher priced, although there are reports of Ruger sending parts to folks for free as well as Ruger seems to continue to pay for shipping of the recalled guns if you want to have Ruger upgrade your gun. Additional mags are cheaper for the KT though too.

Magazine Drops.

The biggest “new” problem with the LCP seems to be the magazine dropping issue on guns post-recall. I spent some time over the past few days learning more about the mag catch issue on the LCP so that I could preventively repair the two LCPs I have access to. It appears the problem has only really reared its head in the post-recall time-period guns. This seems to be because at some point in the past year, Mecgar, the company that makes Ruger's mags, changed the follower design. The initial mags had a slimmer follower with the right side (the side where the catch hole on the mag body is) almost completely open. The new followers are a little thicker and have solid walls on both sides. Because the thicker new follower is a tighter fit inside the mag body, the follower actually rubs the mag catch tooth, pushing it outward so far that it drops the magazine. This problem is worse for mag catches that are worn to begin with as their tooth holding the mag may not be as big to start. Folks seem to complain that the problem is most prevalent in the mags with the extended finger floorplate, but the problem exists for all mags with the bigger/newer follower. The finger floorplate may contribute to the problem because the shooter's hand is pushing the mag back/downward when the new follower slides by the catch, thereby increase the chance the mag will drop if the catch is worn and/or pressed by the follower. (Note that Ruger sent one new finger extension magazine to each person who had a recalled gun fixed by Ruger, to make up for the hassle of the recall. I got my recalled guns back in December 2008 and each came with a new mag that included the new, thicker follower.)

Rumor has it that Ruger's current product of LCPs and some of the latest recall-repaired ones have metal mag catches in them. Ruger is selling metal mag catches now as well. They are $8.00 a piece (before shipping). Part number is 02610 (note that the older, plastic mag catch was part number 02600). I got the metal mag catch and new spring. Had to remove the frame from the Ruger to get to the catch and spring. Pretty much the same job as removing the frame from the KT. The hammer spring is more difficult to remove and install on the bottom of the grip on the Ruger by far though due to the Ruger having a plastic cap that is not part of the hammer spring / pin assembly. The metal mag catches are nice. Rumor also seems to indicate that Ruger has beefed up the mag catch spring so it's more difficult for the follower to bump it open as the follower passes the catch's tooth. I got new springs and I couldn’t feel the difference between the new and old spring’s force. Some of the later recall-repaired models purportedly have the “stronger” spring, but I can't find information saying which ones or when Ruger started adding that to the recall repairs (if it truly did).

As for DIY fixes on the LCP beyond replacing the plastic catch for a metal one and adding the new spring, users are recommending that the side of the new follower be slightly carved out to allow it to slide past the tooth of the mag catch. One person measured it and estimates he took off about 20 thousandths from the small section on the side of the follower that the catch tooth slides against. If you take an empty magazine body and insert it into your gun with the slide off so you can see down into the empty mag body where the catch tooth points into the magazine, and then you slowly slide the follower up into the mag body and watch it when it gets to the catch tooth, you will see that it gets hung up on the tooth. This will show you exactly where on the follower you will want to sand/file. I used a dremel to gently remove material at that location trial and error until the follower slid freely up and down inside the magazine regardless of the angle of the magazine body in the gun (the mags on the LCP seem to have some slop when in the gun but it's not enough to allow the new follower to slip by the catch tooth without notching out the follower). Another DIY fix is that people have ordered followers from Keltec for use in P3AT mags and are swapping the new Ruger follower with those. The KT followers are slimmer, like the earlier Ruger followers were.

To be complete, there are reports of Keltec magazine drop issues too, but they seem to be fairly minimal. The plastic tooth on the catch eventually will be worn down so that it doesn't engage the mag body. Keltec does not sell a metal mag catch, but rumor has it that there may be aftermarket ones available at the KT forums. I haven’t been able to find them. I believe that KT charges .50 (including shipping) for replacement plastic mag catches.

If one doesn't ram the magazine into either the KT or the LCP, which does nothing but prematurely wear the plastic catch's tooth, there's probably a lot of life in the plastic catch for both guns. Pressing the mag button to load the magazine will help increase its life as well. Regardless, I think this is yet another area where the KT beats out the Ruger. When a KT drops a mag, its because of visible wear on a plastic part that costs you .50 to replace. Parts wear out and screws fall out all the time -- it's an imperfect world. I can live with that. The Ruger problem is primarily caused by the improperly designed new follower, which I assume Ruger/Mecgar will fix eventually. KT went through plenty of growing pains over the years, and although some would say that Ruger is just experiencing the same thing, there seems to be much more of a "rush to market" cause with the Ruger line.

Hammer Block.

I also wanted to make a comment on the KT's hammer block. The main reason that Ruger says it recalled the LCP was because there were reports of the gun firing when dropped. Ruger apparently redesigned the hammer block. It's a small metal piece that catches the hammer when the gun’s hammer is cocked.

Keltec has a new hammer block available too. I don't believe KT has admitted that the block needs to be replaced due to ADs, and I'm not aware of reports of KT's being dropped and AD'ing (although I suppose someone has alleged that somewhere). Regardless, the new hammer block -- which happens to be the same part for both the P3AT and the PF9 -- will "fix" the "problem" if you want to have it "fixed."

People are replacing hammer blocks for another reason though. That is that some guys forget and try to short-stroke their P3AT -- like, e.g., you can do with a glock. That is, as you let the trigger out, when you feel the first "click," you pull the trigger back again to fire. You can't do that with a P3AT or an LCP. For both guns, you have to allow the trigger to move to its forward most reset point before trying to re-fire the guns. With the old hammer block on the P3AT, if you pull the trigger after the first click, the trigger will move backwards. Some folks claim that pulling the trigger at that stage on a p3at will lock it up, but it didn’t do that on mine. The improved hammer block won't let the trigger be pulled back after this first reset-click on either the P3AT or the LCP. The trigger is just locked and doesn't move if you try to pull it after the first click. To determine whether you have the new or old hammer block in your KT, and using a snapcap, the test is to pull the trigger after this first click to see if it moves backward or is firm. If it moves, you have the old block.

If you are interested and like to DIY, KelTec sells the new designed hammer block for around $7.00. Instructions for replacement are on the KT forums. I have to believe that KT would replace it for you if you asked as well, but I'm not aware of folks going that route. I replaced the hammer block on my KT so it's now as safe as the Ruger from ADs if dropped (assuming that problem ever really existed). Had to remove the frame from the plastic grip to do this. Not a difficult job. While apart, I replaced the plastic mag catch with another factory plastic one as mine was a little worn but I never experienced a mag drop. Replaced the mag catch spring too since KT sent it for free with the .50 mag catch I paid for.

Extractors.

The KT extractor is held in place by the metal flat spring that is held on to the slide with that flat headed screw. That screw has to remain tight and should be checked periodically. If it’s loose, you’ll experience extraction problems. The head of the screw is soft though and can be stripped if too much force is applied. Good to have some extras in your parts drawer. KT charges .50 for them.

The Ruger extractor is more difficult to work on. Some folks recommend you don’t remove it. I ordered a new extractor due to reports that Ruger was replacing them with "beefier" ones on the more recent hammer block recall fixes. The extractors I got are definitely different than the old one. The old one has more of a sharp point on it. The new ones have that point dulled out some. Looks almost like it has already been worn. I checked online and others are reporting this new design as well. (I ordered two new ones and they were identical.) I wonder if this new design isn't simply another way Ruger is trying to save case rims from damage. The Ruger's extractor is held in place with a spring and small detent. There's a tiny hole behind the extractor that you push a small pick into and then press the detent backward to take pressure off the extractor, after which it will fall out of the slide when you tip it to the side. That spring proved itself to be quite forceful though. Taking the old extractor out should be done inside a plastic bag so the detent doesn't fly to nowhere land on you. Because I wanted to clean out the hole where the spring and detent reside, I pulled the small parts out of the slide. It would have been much easier to just use the pick to press back on the detent, drop out the old extractor, drop in the new extractor, and then release the detent without having taken the detent completely out of the gun. Having another person’s hand to help would have been best, but I was able to do it myself. To get the parts back into place, I ended up using a wooden chopstick to push the detent and spring back into place so I could insert the pick into the tiny hole to hold the tiny parts there, and then with my third hand I dropped the new extractor into place before removing the pick so the detent would press against and hold in place the new extractor. Hard to do all of this in a plastic bag so work somewhere where you'll find small parts if one goes flying on you.

Note that the very earlier, pre-recall models of the LCP had a corner of the inside of the frame that wasn’t milled out properly. The cases would get deformed and ripped due to this metal, and the gun really took a beating there as well. Ruger mills out about 1/8 x 1/8 inches of material from that corner if you send in an earlier gun for the recall hammer block repair. The new guns are milled from factory.

Conclusion.

Bottom line is that these two guns are very much alike. Working on them is very similar. Each has issues that should be addressed to make them perform to their best.