Birdshot leads to annoyingly still alive home intruder

[timwarner]

Is snowblowing in the wind just like peeing in the wind?

Sorta, but not as warm.

Worse, because you know in a few hours you're gonna have to do it again.

[Pat Cannon]

Why are people allowed to post on gun forums without having read the Box O' Truth website??

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

[hammAR]

Why are people allowed to post on gun forums without having read the Box O' Truth website??

Good question......maybe it should be part of the concealed carry classes.................

[gyrfalcon]

Bird shot works great if you have the right weapon to deliver it!




(I'm being completely sarcastic, it sucks for self-defense applications)

[selurcspi]

IF you had the right weapon for the job and IF knew how to shoot you would not need those last two.....................

Gunny, he was in the Navy. His idea of the right weapon is a cruise missile. As for knowing how to shoot, well, he was in the NAVY.....

Hey Goalie, you're using a pretty broad brush there buddy. There are plenty of Matelots that can shoot, we had to learn because the boot-necks are never around when you need em.

[goalie]

IF you had the right weapon for the job and IF knew how to shoot you would not need those last two.....................

Gunny, he was in the Navy. His idea of the right weapon is a cruise missile. As for knowing how to shoot, well, he was in the NAVY.....

Hey Goalie, you're using a pretty broad brush there buddy. There are plenty of Matelots that can shoot, we had to learn because the boot-necks are never around when you need em.

I was referring to the swabbies on OUR side of the pond......specifically ones with pink unicorn avatars.

[Pat Cannon]

Bird shot works great if you have the right weapon to deliver it!

(I'm being completely sarcastic, it sucks for self-defense applications)

Oh I bet the load in that gun would put somebody down! Wonder what gauge it is? Looks a bit unwieldy for indoors though. Unless maybe if I got pistol grip model.

[rugersol]

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

I hear a shotgun's a very effective home-defense weapon. I also hear buckshot's preferable.

I wonder if buckshot's more likely to penetrate sheetrock.

Add in limited maneuverability, and limited firepower, and increased difficulty in securing a hot, readily available shotgun from the neighbor kids, and I tend to think, with jest a pistol, I'm not missin' a whole helluva lot.

I wonder how many folks could actualy duplicate the accuracy with a shotgun, in a hurry, they daydream 'bout? I've seen some VERY good folks with a shotgun miss some VERY close 18in square targets.

I personally don't like the strategy where racking the action on a pump is gonna send the bad guy packin' ... but considering the likelihood that'd be the case, vs. actually only wounding an intruder, and endin' up like this guy, I reckon that ain't half bad.

[/bored]

I'm not familiar with the source fer what Pat quoted ... but, presuming it has some basis in fact, I'll continue ...

First 'n foremost, I think anyone who competes with somethin' even vaguely resembling their weapon of choice, is well ahead of the game ... and fer the most part, none of the following applies ...

I believe ... maybe not rightly so ... that most folks who keep a pistol or shotgun fer home-defense do not practice with it with any regularity, whatsoever ... certainly, nowhere near in the way they might need to use it.

At which, I'd believe a shotgun would be a better choice ... as I'd 'spect a miss with a pistol, far more likely. And again, while I don't like it, fer most folks, I think if they rack the action on a pump, most bad guys'll move on ... and ultimately, the gunowner's family will be much better off ... no matter how ya slice it.

That said, I'd also guess that most such folks simply keep the shotgun loaded, but not chambered ... and very unsecure ... most likely on the top shelf in a closet. So long as no one else ever handles it, I reckon that werks out ok. God help 'em if someone else decides to "check it out". At which, I think a shotgun's a poor choice.

Again, having seen some VERY good folks, with a shotgun, miss some very close, sizable targets, I believe ... maybe not rightly so ... that most folks have very unrealistic expectations of their own capabilities with a shotgun ... even at ridiculously close range. Ya, I think they got better odds of a hit (though not necessarily lethal, but maybe enough to keep someone in 'nother room from takin' it) with a shotgun ... compared to a pistol ... but 'less the bad-guy spots 'em 5 seconds to properly mount the gun, and line-up a nice shot, I don't think a miss is all that surprising. At that, with buckshot, ya've got several sizable projectiles movin' through the house ... vs. one. I got no clue as to a realistic statistical survival rate of thems in the other rooms, 'tween the two ... it jest don't sound very good, to me.

Beyond all that, I personally find a pistol an extension of my hand. I doubt I'd hafta do any kinda rollin' 'round 'er such ... but if it came to that, I sure as hell'd rather do it with a pistol. I can also shoot ... fairly well, actually ... with both my left and right hands ... I don't think it takes too much, to able to use a pistol effectively, with yer weak hand ... should ya absolutely need to. Simply from the recoil, alone ... I don't see usin' any kinda 00 buck shotgun single-handed. Never even attempted it, with my hands reversed. Not that I'm any kinda "tactical" guy, 'course ... but all this'd beyond most folks' appreciation. Best if they'd jest actually go to the range once in a while, and actually set the target further 'n 15ft.

Havin' no reasonable way to secure a "hot" shotgun, readily accessible, from the neighbor kids ... that purdy well trumps all else, anyhow ... fer me.

Again, I don't think a shotgun's a useless home-defense weapon. But I believe most folks who rely on one, have unrealistic expectations as to the safety of their kids/neighbors sleepin' in their bed ... as well as unrealistic expectations as to their own capabilities in handling it, particularly in a situation which might dictate a bit more ... everything ... than a round of trap.

Again, fer most folks, I don't know that a pistol's any better. However, all else being equal, if we can presume that, whatever yer weapon of choice, MISSING would be the single worst thing ya could do. And the single best way to keep from missing, would be to practice using yer sights. And having done so, devastating as it may be, a bad hit of 00 buck is still a bad hit ... and a good hit of 00 buck or 9mm, is still a good hit ... and most likely lethal. As to a desirable outcome, a pistol is hardly "useless" ... or even "inferior".

Moreover, in smaller/lighter "home defense" shotgun configurations, I'd 'spect most folks' capabilities of makin' up fer a bad hit ... 'er even a miss ... wouldn't be particularly good ... and nowhere near as good, as a properly sized 9mm. Put 'nother way, with a bit of regular practice, 2 'er even 3 good hits from a pistol, in less than one second, ain't no big trick. In fact, I can see no reason why a homeowner wouldn't plan to do precisely that ... and practice it.

Now make it TWO bad guys!

Put 'nother way ... Hey Tim! ... how 'bout fer the last match of the year, we allow the option of usin' a 12ga w/slugs (similar recoil, but much easier to score) in Production or Single-Stack?

Hell, I might even use a 12ga, myself ... jest fer fun!

Speakin' of which, I hope they do that shotgun match at Harris again next Spring ... that was good fun!

[westberg]

Check out these video's one of them is shooting a shotgun at defensive distances.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... -comments/

[rugersol]

Check out these video's one of them is shooting a shotgun at defensive distances.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... -comments/

WAIT, Tim! ... I jest got a 'nother idea!

[hammAR]

Check out these video's one of them is shooting a shotgun at defensive distances.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... -comments/

Looked like DonL....once again taking advantage of more advanced training....this time as a "hostage"..........

[westberg]

At least the hostage used hearing protecting, don't want to take any risks there.

[Snowgun]

Check out these video's one of them is shooting a shotgun at defensive distances.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... -comments/

WOW

[Bessy]

What class taught me was that someone actively fleeing is no longer committing or planning to commit a felony. You don't shoot a robber who's trying to get out of your house.

Note that in no way am I defending the thief. I'm just saying the last 2 shots are going to get the homeowner in trouble.

Ahh the monday morning quarterbacks!... your class also should have taught you that during a piss your pants situations such as a home invasion, you may not be in the state of mind to realize the intruder was trying to flee. It may have been dark, the home owner could have thought he was going for a weapon.....

Details are too sketchy to say .... "He should have stopped shooting".... .. but he should have used buckshot!...

[gyrfalcon]

Check out these video's one of them is shooting a shotgun at defensive distances.
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... -comments/

That has to be one of the more idiotic things I've ever seen... Someone must be completely desperate/stupid if they're willing to fill in for a piece of cardboard.