Minneapolis Curfew in Effect

[jgalt]

Redlining is not of necessity racist. The practice was used in many situations to outline (often w/a red pen, hence the name) based on income levels & statistics showing high levels of delinquency based on neighborhoods. These areas may or may not have had higher-than-average minority populations, and those doing the "redlining" legitimately didn't take those stats into account.

There is no legitimate use of redlining. It disqualifies people who otherwise would be legitimate candidates based solely on who their neighbors are. It uses statistics that have no bearing on ability to pay to deny someone financing.

I agree wholeheartedly. That doesn't change the fact that it isn't necessarily racist...

[jgalt]

It's possible I am mistaken - show me I am and I'll thank you for having done so.

And it's possible you're correct. The expectation that a poor black part of town experiences more crime or violence or breakdancing or anything, without any evidence to that extent, is behavior that I would describe as 'easily confused with racist'. I'm not trying to judge intentions,just saying what was said carries some racist connotations. Either way, i never made any claims to crime rates anywhere in town - the onus is upon you to prove anything.

Regardless, racism is a charge that can only stick if the the claim being made is both mistaken & based on race. Since I, as a relatively new resident of the Metro area, and not residing anywhere close to the area in question, have no clue regarding the racial make up of said area, there is no way anything I have stated can be racist. I can't speak for anyone else about whom you may be referring...

Guess I'm not sure where this is going, but I never accused you of anything. When I stated my feelings about the tenor of this thread, you were the first to reply... but that's a far cry from me saying ANYTHING that you should feel the need to defend yourself from.

Point 1 - I recall, possibly incorrectly, reading stats indicating a higher than average rate of crime in North Minneapolis. If you can show me I'm wrong, I'll be happy to acknowledge such. If you don't wish to do so, that is certainly your prerogative, but I am under no obligation to prove anything to you...

Either way, my initial comment was a response to your blanket charge of "braggart racism" by ... some unidentified person or group of contributors to this thread, without any specific illustration of racism in this thread to go along with the charge. Using your above logic, wouldn't the onus be on you to prove - or at the very least give specific examples of - those things you believe could have been easily confused with racism?

Point 2 - I was not defending myself, as I've no need to defend against a charge which doesn't in any way apply to me. I was simply pointing out that, even if some commenter(s) are in fact racist - despite seeing no evidence to support your claim - there may be other explanations for what you perceived as possibly "carrying racist connotations".

It is an undeniable good to call out racism anywhere it is found - just be careful to ensure that racism is actually there before doing so, as doing otherwise is just as bad...

[princewally]

It's possible I am mistaken - show me I am and I'll thank you for having done so.

And it's possible you're correct. The expectation that a poor black part of town experiences more crime or violence or breakdancing or anything, without any evidence to that extent, is behavior that I would describe as 'easily confused with racist'. I'm not trying to judge intentions,just saying what was said carries some racist connotations. Either way, i never made any claims to crime rates anywhere in town - the onus is upon you to prove anything.

Why'd you have to bring race into it?

Of the top 10 most violent neighborhoods in Minneapolis, 5 are in North. North Minneapolis accounts for 1/3 of all of the violent crime in Minneapolis.

Edit:

Summary YTD:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... y=CK_r25gL

Cites:
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/ ... istics.asp
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/ ... cincts.asp

[gyrfalcon]

I think I imagined it... but didn't KQRS read or play clip from some lady that said her kid said saw a tornado and she was like "Willis we don't have no tornados in da hood!"

[Nat]

Point 1 - I recall, possibly incorrectly, reading stats indicating a higher than average rate of crime in North Minneapolis. If you can show me I'm wrong, I'll be happy to acknowledge such. If you don't wish to do so, that is certainly your prerogative, but I am under no obligation to prove anything to you...

prerogative, hell, it's my birthright. I don't have to refute a single thing you've ever said if I don't choose to. Most specifically (please pay attention to this Wally, I'll revisit this later if you'd like) I NEVER MADE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT CRIME RATES IN ANY PART OF THE CITY. Super important that - because I am now at NO OBLIGATION TO SUPPORT ANYTHING I DIDN'T SAY EARLIER.

I hope we can agree on that simple point

THAT being said, either you just moved here, and have no sense of the identity of the neighborhoods of minneapolis, no understanding that a poor black neighborhood was hit by a tornado, and therefore no basis upon which to make the claim (as you earlier did)
"Truth is an absolute defense, and cannot be racist..." - in which case 'braggart' seems gentle - shoving your nose in to a conversation about other people's tragedy, with complete indifference, just so you would appear to have something valid to add to the conversation

Or, YOU DO understand the cultural aspects of neighborhoods affected, and while not compelled to make statements of distasteful nature yourself, you defend other's statements as 'truth' and then absolutely refuse to support the 'truth' you, yourself applauded. In that case, I'd opt for 'intellectually lazy'. unwilling to support your statements, then asking someone else to defend statements they hadn't actually made.

Either way, my initial comment was a response to your blanket charge of "braggart racism" by ... some unidentified person or group of contributors to this thread, without any specific illustration of racism in this thread to go along with the charge. Using your above logic, wouldn't the onus be on you to prove - or at the very least give specific examples of - those things you believe could have been easily confused with racism?

in order of appearance

You know what's sad about this ... I briefly thought ... Well, it IS the North side ... and then I paused and that thought sacred me.

xd Ed, the looters LIVE there. Look how long it took them to loot broadway liquor outlet.

:)I had that exact thought and was going to post it, but then I quietly said to myself, "That's racist," and didn't.

Truth is an absolute defense, and cannot be racist...

xd Ed, the looters LIVE there. Look how long it took them to loot broadway liquor outlet.

There ya go. Again, I MAKE NO CLAIMS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE RACIST. ONLY THAT THEY HAVE MADE STATEMENTS THAT A CASUAL OBSERVER COULD EASILY FIND DISPARAGING, AND COULD EASILY BE CONFUSED WITH RACIST COMMENTS If you (collective you, not the individual you) want to make racist comments - GO AHEAD. Hell, go to stormfront and make em all day long... they like talking about guns too! Hell, make em here, I'm not the gun talk cops... but as surely as you (collective you, not the individual you) can accuse poor black people of acting like criminals, I can accuse you of speaking like a racist -

/me kicks away soap box and walks away

[Heffay]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.

Just something to keep in mind.

[rtk]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.

Just something to keep in mind.

OK, thanks!

[gyrfalcon]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.
Just something to keep in mind.

All the metrosexuals live in the north loop

[Heffay]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.
Just something to keep in mind.

All the metrosexuals live in the north loop

That's why it's so AWESOME!

Although it's changed a bit. We're getting 20-somethings now, and the place has just gone to hell. F'ing kids. I hate those people.

[jgalt]

Point 1 - I recall, possibly incorrectly, reading stats indicating a higher than average rate of crime in North Minneapolis. If you can show me I'm wrong, I'll be happy to acknowledge such. If you don't wish to do so, that is certainly your prerogative, but I am under no obligation to prove anything to you...

prerogative, hell, it's my birthright... <snip>

You say birthright, I say prerogative - you may dislike my choice of words, but I don't mean anything different than you in this case.

(ETA: I just looked up prerogative, and its meaning is not as broad as I remember it being. I did use it incorrectly, though not intentionally...)

THAT being said, either you just moved here

As I stated, recent - though not "just"...

, and have no sense of the identity of the neighborhoods of minneapolis

Guilty as charged...

no understanding that a poor black neighborhood was hit by a tornado

While obviously aware of the tornado, I did not in fact have any clue as to the racial make up of the area.

and therefore no basis upon which to make the claim (as you earlier did) "Truth is an absolute defense, and cannot be racist..." - in which case 'braggart' seems gentle.

Here's the actual post to which you refer:

xd Ed, the looters LIVE there. Look how long it took them to loot broadway liquor outlet.

I had that exact thought and was going to post it, but then I quietly said to myself, "That's racist," and didn't.

Truth is an absolute defense, and cannot be racist...

Fact - the single instance of looting happened within minutes of the tornado's passing. Speculation - it seems reasonable that whoever did it does in deed live quite near by.

Mac's reply indicates there was a connection between "looter" and "resident" (reasonable), and assumed resident must be black. (To be fair to Mac - a good portion of his posts are sarcastic and are meant to be taken that way. As I've met him, and have interacted with him on the board since joining in early 2008, I assumed this post was to be taken in that manner...)

My response was a truism & therefore accurate. It's meaning - as I obviously didn't state it clearly enough for you - is simply this: Looting happened, and as it is reasonable to assume it was done by local residents, even if the looters were black, it is reasonable to assume Tim's statement is factually correct. Therefore, what with truth being an absolute defense, the statement as written cannot be racist.

I'm not going to assume to know whether or not either Tim had any racist intent - though as I've met him as well I assume not. But even if he did, that would in no way make any less true my reaction to what I saw written.

So, if to state a truism is to be a braggart - or something worse... - well, now we're back to the whole birthright thing...

Or, YOU DO understand the cultural aspects of neighborhoods affected... <snip>

Addressed above, making the rest of your statement irrelevant...

Either way, my initial comment was a response to your blanket charge of "braggart racism" by ... some unidentified person or group of contributors to this thread, without any specific illustration of racism in this thread to go along with the charge. Using your above logic, wouldn't the onus be on you to prove - or at the very least give specific examples of - those things you believe could have been easily confused with racism?

in order of appearance

You know what's sad about this ... I briefly thought ... Well, it IS the North side ... and then I paused and that thought sacred me.

xd Ed, the looters LIVE there. Look how long it took them to loot broadway liquor outlet.

:)I had that exact thought and was going to post it, but then I quietly said to myself, "That's racist," and didn't.

Truth is an absolute defense, and cannot be racist...

xd Ed, the looters LIVE there. Look how long it took them to loot broadway liquor outlet.

There ya go. Again, I MAKE NO CLAIMS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE RACIST. ONLY THAT THEY HAVE MADE STATEMENTS THAT A CASUAL OBSERVER COULD EASILY FIND DISPARAGING, AND COULD EASILY BE CONFUSED WITH RACIST COMMENTS If you (collective you, not the individual you) want to make racist comments - GO AHEAD. Hell, go to stormfront and make em all day long... they like talking about guns too! Hell, make em here, I'm not the gun talk cops... but as surely as you (collective you, not the individual you) can accuse poor black people of acting like criminals, I can accuse you of speaking like a racist.

In an effort to end this as amicably as possible - as neither of us has met the other (to my knowledge), let's assume that neither of us is a racist. I know it is true in my case, and I refuse to attribute that label to anyone until they have earned it - which you have not based on our conversation here.

My entire point is this - any charge of racism &/or racist intent needs to be supported clearly & in it's entirety. To simply make the charge, or even the intimation as you did, without offering any support, and based solely on the reasoning that some unknown person might interpret a true statement as racist, is almost as damaging as racism itself. If it can be proven true, be clear about it & support the accusation. If it cannot be proven, ignore it, or set it aside as possible evidence to support some future words or actions.

It is extremely difficult to identify & deal with actual racism when everyone is busy censoring what they say for fear that someone might find something they say offensive / racist / whatever, or accusing others of having done so...

Bottom line - I don't give a **** whether or not someone finds something I say to be offensive or racist, so long as what I've said is factually true. If I can be shown that whatever I've said is in fact objectively racist or offensive, I will renounce it immediately & ask forgiveness from the aggrieved party. If not, then I'm back to the truism, as the truth actually is an absolute defense, even against the charge of racism.

[ComradeBurg]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.

Just something to keep in mind.

Is there anything on this board that does make us look good?

[Heffay]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.

Just something to keep in mind.

Is there anything on this board that does make us look good?

Me. Duh!

[rtk]

The statement "All the looters live in north Minneapolis" (which was made earlier in this thread, or another thread on the same topic) doesn't make us look good.

Just something to keep in mind.

Is there anything on this board that does make us look good?

Me. Duh!

[hammAR]

................a poor black neighborhood was hit by a tornado

Sounds to me like mother-nature may be racist...........

[nyffman]

Me. Duh!

Exactly! Winning!