Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby traveler on Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:16 am

Northern Gal wrote:I'm sure you're all going to blast me for this, however, as a parent, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a pediatrician asking if there are guns in the house, and whether they are kept secure from the kids, any more than I would take issue with the pediatrician reminding me that my child should always wear a helmet when riding his bike. Kids rely on the adults in their lives to make sure they are safe, and it is a pediatrician's responsibility to look out for the total care and safety of each child that is his/her patient. In the ideal world, we wouldn't have to deal with parents who are complete idiots and should never have reproduced; but in the real world, that isn't the case, and for some of these kids, the pediatrician is the only responsible adult these children see until they start school.

The question regarding guns and the subsequent reminder that they must be kept secure is not a judgement call by the physician, nor is it an opening to lecturing you about whether or not you should have guns in the house; if a physician took it to that level, there would be reason to bitch, and believe me I would! However, some of the responses I've seen on here take offense because the physician isn't a certified gun instructor; that isn't the point here. They are only asking questions to determine that you are responsible and are making sure that your child is living in a safe environment. Again, I see no problem with that.

Now, if MY physician were to ask me about whether or not I own a gun, that's a different story. I'm the only one responsible for my own safety, and if I'm stupid enough to handle my gun in an unsafe manner - one that results in me being hurt or killed - well, that's nature's way of weeding out the stupid. That's none of my physician's business before the fact!


It is not that physicians are being discouraged from giving out preventative warnings. The point here is that these physicians are gathering information and, it is believed, storing that information for future use. What possible reason would a physician have for retaining that specific information? What is the end use of such information?

I suspect, although this may be a bit cloudy, that residents in a household would be far more likely to be injured or killed in a fall. Do physicians gather information on the the number of stairs in a house, the height of the risers, etc? The number, size, and shape of bathtubs? Do they collect information on how many pointy things you might have around the house that have the potential to cause a puncture wound? The answer to those is "NO"! If physicians are not prepared to scour residences for potential infectious agents (molds, vermin infestations, etc) they have no business asking what firearms a person might possess.

Why then would they collect information on firearms? It should suffice to hand out pamphlets that advise to keep the end of firearms from which the bullets exit pointed in a safe direction. They might also sponsor firearms training, but they do not. Physicians as a group, via the AMA, have demonstrated a dislike for firearms and could very well be considered "anti's". They do not need information on the subject of firearms in the home to do their job effectively and efficiently.

For the issue that some children are exposed to the only responsible person in their life when they see a physician, I would venture to say that a more liberal prescribing of birth control medications, and a far greater application of vasectomies, would go a long way to fixing that. Still, this has no bearing on firearms at all.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby grousemaster on Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:17 am

Northern Gal wrote:
grousemaster wrote:quote]

and I see no problem telling the doctor it's none of their business. Do these doctors also ask about a swimming pool, knives, poisonous materials, etc? Guns become the doctors business once someone gets shot and they have to fix them.....and not until then.


Actually, pediatricians do ask about swimming pools, knives, poisonous materials, and many other hazards that have the potential to cause injury or death to children. They aren't just selecting guns to ask parents about, and they aren't interested - at least not in their roll as a physician - in taking away our Second Amendments rights.



Interesting, the American Association of Pediatricians seems to have a different take on our gun rights......where did you get your information?

http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps25.htm
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Northern Gal on Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:58 am

I want to remind those of you that are disagreeing with me that in my original post I indicated that if a pediatrician were to use his/hers questions about gun ownership to use it as an opportunity to lecture me on my decision to own guns, I would quickly let the physician know he/she was overstepping their bounds and was being inappropriate. Grousemaster posted a link to the AAP giving results to a survey of 1016 pediatricians in the US - the majority of those 1016 support stricter gun control. However, that is their personal opinion; their personal opinion on social issues has no place in an exam room, and unless they are totally unprofessional, they will behave accordingly. Again, as your child's pediatrician, he/she is not trying to infringe on your 2A rights, only trying to assure your child's saftey. Where am I getting my information? Personal experience.

As for "storing" the information for later use - because of the government mandated HIPPA laws, any information received in the course of care must be kept private. Certainly there are times that the information can be shared, such as when subpoenaed by the Court, but I think we're being a little paranoid to think that these questions by our childrens' doctors are part of a govenment conspiracy.

I agree that there are many things that can cause injury to a child - many more than can be addressed at a visit to the doctor's office. However, it has been my experience that the things I'm asked about are the things that contribute to the majority of serious injuries to kids in the US, and unfortunately, guns that are not kept secure or are used in an unsafe manner are a part of that. To clarify - I'm not saying that GUNS cause the majority of serious injuries, I'm saying that they are one of several things - such as not wearing a bike helmet - that contribute to the statistics. Therefore, they are one of the things targeted by a pediatrician when reviewing a child's environment.

I'm sure that there will be many more posters that disagree with me (I totally expected that), and I will check back periodically to see your responses, as I do find them interesting and you may bring up points that I have not thought about - that's why these forum discussions are so valuable. But for now I'm off - I'm actually going to be heading down to the Cities to babysit my grandchild! Talk to you later!

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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby traveler on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:09 am

Northern Gal wrote:Grousemaster posted a link to the AAP giving results to a survey of 1016 pediatricians in the US - the majority of those 1016 support stricter gun control. However, that is their personal opinion; their personal opinion on social issues has no place in an exam room, and unless they are totally unprofessional, they will behave accordingly. Again, as your child's pediatrician, he/she is not trying to infringe on your 2A rights, only trying to assure your child's saftey. Where am I getting my information? Personal experience.\


You are comparing empirical data and a publicly announced political stance against personal anecdote. As for doctor's being "unprofessional"? I am sure that has never been the case. :roll:
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:23 am

traveler wrote:
Northern Gal wrote:Grousemaster posted a link to the AAP giving results to a survey of 1016 pediatricians in the US - the majority of those 1016 support stricter gun control. However, that is their personal opinion; their personal opinion on social issues has no place in an exam room, and unless they are totally unprofessional, they will behave accordingly. Again, as your child's pediatrician, he/she is not trying to infringe on your 2A rights, only trying to assure your child's saftey. Where am I getting my information? Personal experience.\


You are comparing empirical data and a publicly announced political stance against personal anecdote. As for doctor's being "unprofessional"? I am sure that has never been the case. :roll:


Especially if they are members of this forum.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby DanM on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:39 am

Northern Gal wrote:I agree that there are many things that can cause injury to a child - many more than can be addressed at a visit to the doctor's office. However, it has been my experience that the things I'm asked about are the things that contribute to the majority of serious injuries to kids in the US, and unfortunately, guns that are not kept secure or are used in an unsafe manner are a part of that. To clarify - I'm not saying that GUNS cause the majority of serious injuries, I'm saying that they are one of several things - such as not wearing a bike helmet - that contribute to the statistics. Therefore, they are one of the things targeted by a pediatrician when reviewing a child's environment.
\


I spoke with a relative who is a nurse practitioner in a family practice why she asks patients about guns. "Because the American Academy of Pediatrics says I should." Why do they ask you to ask the other questions about health risks? "Because they are the main health risks." So you ask eight health risk questions because those are the top health risks your patients face? "Yes." So gun deaths among children is one of the top eight causes of death in children in America? "Yes." Where did you get your statistics? "The American Academy of Pediatrics." Have you ever cross-checked the child gun death statistics with the FBI statistics? "No." It would be revealing to compare the two sets of numbers. "We'll see."

Is is required that you ask your patients about guns? "No, it's a suggestion." From whom? "The American Academy of Pediatrics." What if you don't ask that question of your patients? "I could lose my license." So not following a suggestion by the AAP could result in you losing your ability to practice medicine? "Yes." Doesn't seem like a suggestion to me. "Next topic."
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Hammer99... on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:41 am

It's kinda like going to your auto mechanic and having him ask if you speed or make complete stops. Just fix the car ass hole.

How about going to hardware store and having them ask if you lift with you back? None of your **** business.

Life is full of dangers. I go to the doctor because I'm sick or hurt. Not to hear the latest study on how guns and lack of seat-belts kill people. Treat me and set me free...
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:45 am

Last time I checked the predominent opinion on this site is that healthcare is not a right but rather an option. Meaning, no one said you have to go to the doctor and no you do not have a right to one so... your choice I guess. ;)
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby grousemaster on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:01 pm

Did the AAP issue a statement or conduct a survey relating to swimming pools? Those are so dangerous.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby ComradeBurg on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:44 pm

EAJuggalo wrote:It's also not just you they are asking, they are asking your kids and anyone else that lives there. Kids are generally taught from a very young age to tell the Dr. everything they want to know.


Your first step is to teach your children not to talk about firearms in the household. Nobody needs to know about such things and it can make your home a target for thieves looking for firearms. Next thing to note that as a parent your children are likely going to tell you whether their doctor asked them about guns and/or pressed the issue if you ask them. If the doctor is trying to coax information about your firearms while you're not in the exam room then you find another doctor.

EAJuggalo wrote:I don't see how it's a first amendment issue in a licensed and strictly regulated industry. There are many things in many other industries that those practitioners are not allowed to tell their clients and even many other things in Medicine.


This is something I've never agreed with. In my opinion when something is a right it means it's an exercise that can not be infringed by others. Ultimately this has lead me to believe that the only real right is the right of self-ownership from with all other exercises often considered rights extend. Your right to property is an extension of self-ownership and your right to bear arms is an extension of your property rights. Likewise your right to speech is an extension of self-ownership. An employer has a right to determine who he allows to and bars from entering his property meaning he can pick and chose who he wishes to hire. If he says part of your terms of employment mean you can't talk about guns while on the job that's his right to do and you have a choice between working for him on his terms or finding employment elsewhere (or starting your own business of course).

As the government is not a human being it has no right to self-ownership and thus no right to property. Considering this I don't believe the government has any right to violate your right regardless of your career or where you happen to be. I don't see any justifiable reason that the government can punish you for your speech (thus they should not be allowed to make laws against your exercising of speech).
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby grousemaster on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:09 pm

Heffay wrote:What do they do with this information? Data collection can be extremely valuable. Is there a benefit to knowing overall? Is there a benefit to having responsible people with guns admit they have them? Lowers the number of negative gun incidents in homes with guns.



How would it benefit anyone to "admit" they have a gun?
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:18 pm

grousemaster wrote:
Heffay wrote:What do they do with this information? Data collection can be extremely valuable. Is there a benefit to knowing overall? Is there a benefit to having responsible people with guns admit they have them? Lowers the number of negative gun incidents in homes with guns.



How would it benefit anyone to "admit" they have a gun?


Is admit or state? Maybe it is a learning oppertunity. Maybe answer something like "ya, of course I have guns, do you?, why not?" This thread is full of inuendo that seems to suggest that doctor's are all agents of the government. Even though maybe Obama care will lead to that, many of the docs we are interacting with are entrepenurs in their own right, even if with a system and citizens of the same country. Think about that before you put your tinfoil hat on. Once again, if you feel you need to wear your tinfoil, then do not go to the doctor. We are all going to die anyway.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby traveler on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:45 pm

Again, in paraphrase: What do they do with the information? One must have a use intended to collect information. How will knowledge of firearms in the house help provide better health care?

If there is no need to know they shouldn't know it. It certainly doesn't take a tinfoil hat to figure that out.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby crbutler on Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:11 pm

I had originally written a rather tongue in cheek reply to this topic. It was one of my big arguments with the AMA and caused me to stop being a member.

I would be worried about what the info is used for.

HIPAA is not about protecting your information, its about who is allowed to see it. In particular, it allows for the administrative review of records in the payment system and electronic review.

In particular it is involved on letting the insurance companies see the data so they can pay the bills. The acronym stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability act. It really is smoke and mirrors that it "protects your information." Read the paperwork you get from the clinic closely and see what it really is. On the other hand, if you don't sign, you have to pay the bill, not your insurance.

I will say that lots of groups in medicine are "politically active" in areas outside their actual areas of knowledge. IMO the AAP is probably the worst with regards to this.

As to the NP who thinks that they can pull her license over not asking about guns, well maybe her license should be pulled. You lose your license over overt acts of malpractice or malfeasance, you don't get it pulled by making a judgement call over which of the myriad of safety issues you chose to educate your patients on. Firearms accidents (and how many accidents really are accidents as opposed to deliberate in the sense of suicide), while horrible, destructive and mostly preventable, are hardly the cause of morbidity and mortality that the automobile is, or for that matter, medical errors are.
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Re: Doctors *can* ask if you have guns in the house

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:22 pm

Much has been made about the "collecting" of this information. There are people on this forum in almost every walk of life so please someone collaberate this. When I go see my fairview physician and they ask this question what data base is this collected in and who has access to that database? And please, I am refraining from assuming in this post so only post if you have verifiable 1st hand knowledge that you can back up.
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