Fort Lewis soldier gets 2 years, 4 months for manslaughter

[lenny7]

What a freakin' idiot!

http://www.startribune.com/local/17854149.html

Fort Lewis soldier gets 2 years, 4 months for manslaughter in shooting of platoon sergeant

Associated Press

April 17, 2008

FORT LEWIS, Wash. - A soldier has accepted a plea agreement and faces two years and four months in prison for the shooting death of his platoon sergeant in Iraq.

Cpl. Timothy Ayers pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced Wednesday.

The 21-year-old soldier originally was charged with murder for the shooting of 36-year-old Sgt. 1st Class David A. Cooper Jr. on Sept. 5 in Baghdad.

Ayers says he didn't know his pistol was loaded when he pointed it at Cooper. He says he considered Cooper his mentor and second father.

Col. John Head asked why he pulled the trigger. Ayers replied, "I don't know ... I guess I felt so comfortable pulling the trigger when it wasn't loaded before that I just did it."

[Stradawhovious]

http://www.startribune.com/local/17854149.html

Ayers says he didn't know his pistol was loaded when he pointed it at Cooper. He says he considered Cooper his mentor and second father.

Col. John Head asked why he pulled the trigger. Ayers replied, "I don't know ... I guess I felt so comfortable pulling the trigger when it wasn't loaded before that I just did it."

WTF? What normally happens when you pull the trigger? What happened to treat every gun as if it is loaded? What a douchebag. I feel terrible for the victim's family.

[justaguy]

Were either one of you gentlemen in the armed forces? Their are no training guns you use the real deal all the time. Pulling the trigger while pointing your weapon at people happens all the time. Normally it's blanks or MILES gear but you are pointing a weapon at people and pulling the trigger. So the 4 rules are not as they really seem when you are in the service. How many times has someone not in a combat situation shot someone? Not many that I know of in the last 5 or so years. You are talking about hundreds of thousands of troops from all MOS's. Infantry guys are used to having a weapon 24/7 some other MOS's are lucky to see a weapon once a year. Now they have to have them a lot more in a less controlled environment loaded. It is never acceptable but the number is low.

So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge about something you dont know about. The kid is to blame but but that douchebag was risking his life to give you a free ride. Maybe dont be such an Ahole to him.

[Stradawhovious]

Were either one of you gentlemen in the armed forces? Their are no training guns you use the real deal all the time. Pulling the trigger while pointing your weapon at people happens all the time. Normally it's blanks or MILES gear but you are pointing a weapon at people and pulling the trigger. So the 4 rules are not as they really seem when you are in the service. How many times has someone not in a combat situation shot someone? Not many that I know of in the last 5 or so years. You are talking about hundreds of thousands of troops from all MOS's. Infantry guys are used to having a weapon 24/7 some other MOS's are lucky to see a weapon once a year. Now they have to have them a lot more in a less controlled environment loaded. It is never acceptable but the number is low.

So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge about something you dont know about. The kid is to blame but but that douchebag was risking his life to give you a free ride. Maybe dont be such an Ahole to him.

Fair enough. however in my defense, the statemends in the article allude to a casual circumstance, not combat or training. The accused answered "I don't know" to the question as to why he pulled the trigger, not "It was a trainig exercise". If this is the case there was absolutely no reason for it. If this was in a combat or training situation, I withdraw my remark, but either way I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was an accident.
You are right, I haven't been in the armed forces, but you will have to admit, that if this was an easily avoidable situation (as the article leads me to believe) there is no excuse. And for the record I have nothing but respect for those that risk their lives so that I can live mine, so please don't mistake my feelings for what seems to have been a very avoidable situation for disrespect for the Armed Forces. That is both untrue and unfair.

[hammAR]

Sergeant First Class David A. Cooper Jr., 36, of State College, Pennsylvania, died September 5,2007, in Baghdad, Iraq, from a non-combat related injury. He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Washington.....

Timothy Ayers, 20, was sent back to the United States after accidentally shooting and killing his Army platoon sergeant while stationed outside Baghdad Sept. 5. The Army since has accused the young soldier of negligently discharging his weapon under Article 118 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Both men had been assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment - one of the Army's seven Stryker Brigades. The 4,000-member brigade was deployed to Iraq last April for a 15-month tour of duty.

....................that help

[Stradawhovious]

....................that help

Thanks for the clarification.

[lenny7]

So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge about something you dont know about.

We do that all the time here.

Col. John Head asked why he pulled the trigger. Ayers replied, "I don't know ...

The kid pulls the trigger for no damn reason and now Sgt. 1st Class David A. Cooper Jr is dead.

[justaguy]

I’m not saying the kid didn’t make a mistake. You brought it to light which is good. We can all learn from this. Then people proceeded to insult him. Because you know the four rules and this kid must be an “idiot” or a “douche bag” because of this. I’m saying he was doing a tough job that you for whatever reason choose not to do. A little respect on your part wouldn’t hurt. A couple hours prior to this incident the “douche bag” would have gave his life for his country. You make a mistake on your job a computer doesn’t work, something goes to the wrong address, a presentation is missed. This 20 year old kid messes up and it’s his life or someone else’s. He carries a little more on his shoulders than you and I. The kid killed a friend and is doing 2 years for it. He is paying his price.

The military makes their living training people to pull the trigger with people in their sites. How they do that would make people here that are worried about walking into a gun store with cased guns pointed at them cry. Getting people to point a gun at another human and pulling the trigger takes more than talking **** on the net. Is the military safe with guns? Yes they are. Are their times they have to not follow the 4 rules? All the time.

So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge about something you dont know about.

We do that all the time here.

Col. John Head asked why he pulled the trigger. Ayers replied, "I don't know ...

The kid pulls the trigger for no damn reason and now Sgt. 1st Class David A. Cooper Jr is dead.

I will not be quick to judge someone that is willing to give his life for his country and won’t stand by while others do it.

Sgt. 1st Class David A. Cooper Jr. is dead. I know that is what the article was about. Cpl. Timothy Ayers made a mistake. That doesnt make him an "idiot" or a “douche bag”.

[Stradawhovious]

Sgt. 1st Class David A. Cooper Jr. is dead. I know that is what the article was about. Cpl. Timothy Ayers made a mistake. That doesnt make him an "idiot" or a “douche bag”.

Yea, youre right, and I apologize. The kid made a mistake, and we should all take it easy on him. It's not like he killed someone or anything right? RIGHT? I admire your conviction, but I'm not going to go easy on someone who needlessly ends the life of another innocent US citizen, just because he serves in the military. This is what you are expecting me to concede to, and it's kind of confusing.

"Hi I needlessly killed someone through my neglectful and avoidable actions, but it's ok, and you need to be nice to me. I was in the military." Does this really make sense?

[lenny7]

There's more to the story. From http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_8967416, they continue the story above with:

Ayers said, he pulled the trigger in jest - not remembering that he had reloaded the magazine moments before. He hit Cooper in the arm at nearly point-black range; Cooper died on the way to a nearby hospital.

On Thursday, Ayers delivered a tearful apology in court to Cooper's family.

"They surely do not deserve this heartbreak and loss ... that I have brought upon them," the News Tribune quoted Ayers as saying. "I can only hope that those who loved Sgt. First Class Cooper will find a small amount of forgiveness, forgiveness that I cannot have for myself."

Following arguments by both attorneys, the judge sentenced Ayers, discharged him and reduced his rank to private.

The sentence will be automatically appealed.

Both Ayers and Cooper had been assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment - one of the Army's seven Stryker Brigades. The 4,000-member brigade was deployed to Iraq last April for a 15-month tour of duty.

Cooper, who was described in court as a loving father and exceptional soldier, is buried at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia.

[Stradawhovious]

Now that I have read more of the story, I have this to say......

No matter how I feel about this persons actions, I can say this. It is obvious that he feels terrible about the situation, as he should. He is extremely fortunate to only have received just over two years for these actions, but I feel sorry for him that he has to live with the result, and mental anguish over this for the rest of his life. I couldn't begin to know what hell he's putting himself through.

Still an unfortunate, and avoidable situation.

[EricMN]

While I'm all for going lienent on the kid since he f**ked up and is going to feel that for the rest of his life, this has happened before...

http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/1-2 ... 359213.php
http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/0-A ... 116322.php

I can't find the article I'm really looking for, but basically what it was:

2 soldiers, good friends, played a game with each other doing stuff like flipping a safety off or something similar. However, they were pretty religious about clearing their weapons. one of the friends thought it'd be funny to load a belt of 2-3 linked rounds into his buddies SAW. (SAW fires from open bolt, and the weapon has to be cocked (and bolt to the rear/open) to be put on safe). His buddy didn't clear his SAW and pointed it at his friend, and pulled the trigger, the guy who loaded the weapon was shot. not sure if he was injured or died...

The problem in Iraq/Afghanistan is complacency. The troops are getting too used to doing certain actions, and they are forgetting to do the basics, like the LT who forgot to clear his weapon. He might have done it 5 times that day, but forgot to the last time. Or the soldiers who got to chow and are required to carry a magazine with them, and only load 3 rounds into the mag, so it's lighter. What happens when they pull that mag out of their vest expecting 28 rounds and get 3...

Few training ditties that need to get re-integrated into the guys overseas
"Safety First, Safety Always"
"Complacency Kills"

[Wadero]

Soldiers go through thousands of hours of pulling the trigger on their weapon. In basic training alone I have probably dry fired a weapon more than I have ever fired my personal weapon. After dry firing at silhouettes for hours we would fire blanks at other American soldiers constantly. With MILES gear we would fire at each other with hopes to "kill" other soldiers. Soldiers have an almost pavlovian response to pull the trigger. The small amount of time that a civilian handles a weapon keeps him more sensitive to actually using his weapon.

This kid made a huge mistake but if the **** ever hit the fan, I would pick this convicted felon to cover me over a random permit holder.

[JoeH]

I'll just chime in to say that good people make mistakes too. They have to pay the price just like everyone else.

[Stradawhovious]

Only because I feel my statements need further clarification to try to eliminate my current a$$hat status, here goes

Never once did I say this guy is a bad person, or a criminal, I merely assigned him a title based on my reaction to his actions.
Never once did I make reference to the "4 rules" as this seems to be thrown back at me a bit on these postings I am just floored that people can forget that it is a possibility for a weapon to discharge when the trigger is pulled.
Never once did I even hint that the Armed Forces are not heavily trained professionals, and I would never say that they do not deserve respect and consideration for the things that they do for us that are "getting a free ride" as it has been put.

So to my original point, I stand by my remarks, and to those of you who are pissed at me for the reasons above, I understand and respect your anger. I would also like thank you for your service to myself and our country. This is a sincere thank you, I am not trying my hand at sarcasm.