Stand your ground or murder? (Video of the event)

[JeremiahMN]

Stand your ground, or just good old fashion murder?

http://www.khou.com/news/Retired-firefi ... 20465.html

[kerns bbo]

Obviously there is a lot of information missing. Based on what we see I have formed my opinion.

My opinion: why would the shooter keep standing there after perceiving a threat to his life? He had plenty of opportunity to simply walk away to keep himself safe. If there is time to pull your gun, inform them to back away (which was initially complied with), call police, have a conversation with the other party, and record it all on camera, then there was time and room to simply drop the argument and walk away.

If you are in a situation where you feel threatened and are given the opportunity to remove yourself from that situation, do so. Why shoot someone when by simply walking away 60 seconds earlier you could have ended the situation.

When the situation escalated we unfortunately lose the video. The shooter screwed up by being there in the first place. But, when confronted with another weapon he defended himself according to the law.

Was it self defense? Probably yes (depending on what the person came back with). Was it preventable by the shooter? Yes.

He defended himself in a situation that he put himself in.





This is exaggerated over the situation we are discussing but expresses my point.

If I were to deliberately walk into North Minneapolis with hundred dollar bills and iPhones taped to my shirt on a nice friday night I know I will be approached and most likely robbed. I will knowingly be risking my well being and it is likely I would have to defend myself. Does this sound like smart and acceptable behavior?

Or, I could simply put my phones and money in my pockets and go around North Minneapolis to avoid the situation all together.

[Holland&Holland]

Stand your ground, or just good old fashion murder?

http://www.khou.com/news/Retired-firefi ... 20465.html

What is good old fashion murder? Never heard of that one, is it someplace between 1st and 2nd degree? Kinda like 1.5 degree murder or what?

Also, what is the stand your groud law in this jurisdiction? Hard to make a decision when all that is presented is a grainy video and no facts or testimony but if thay is how you play then let me suggest "law and order". Their writters can make all sorts of scinerios for you to contemplate.

[Thunder71]

Without the whole story... here's my thoughts.


This was over loud music.

How is it stand your ground when you leave the safety of your home and not only go toward the problem, but escalate it?

1. Call the cops, let them handle it.
2. Sit down and relax.

I don't think he went there with the intention of killing someone, he went there with the intent to scare them. They didn't get scared, he didn't back off and go back home, he stuck around to see what would happen.

I find it interesting that while on the phone he said he was in fear for his life and that they were going to kill him as they were walking away.

[TTS]

This is why stand your ground laws need the tempering of a reluctant participant clause.

Legal or not he escalated the situation, did not leave when he had a chance and someone ended up dead. IMHO both parties are at fault, the drunk people should have gone inside and called the cops and the guy with the camera should have walked away when he had the chance.

Is loud music worth your life?

[bulletproof]

Is loud music worth your life?

Since the people died over it, apparently it is.

[Spike]

I don't know about the Stand Your Ground part but he sure failed the Unwilling Participant test. He went to another persons property with a handgun showing and didn't leave when things went bad? Brilliant.

Has anyone said; "This makes us look bad." yet?

[user293]

im with the folks above. its one thing to go down the street to tell the neighbors to turn the music down, but to go down with a gun? there was no threat. so what was he gonna do, shoot em if they didnt turn the music down? kinda rediculous and he should do some time. the other party members were drunk, and didnt take well to warning but still. kind of a messed up situation.

[jdege]

I don't know about the Stand Your Ground part but he sure failed the Unwilling Participant test.

No, he didn't.

You can only fail the "Unwilling Participant" test by engaging in illegal activities. He had done nothing illegal, prior to their assaulting him.

[Heffay]

Careful. If you claim that stand your ground has flaws, you're going to be accused of being anti-gun. You know, under the "you're either with us, or against us" test.

[Heffay]

You can only fail the "Unwilling Participant" test by engaging in illegal activities.

That's not true. Maybe you want it to be true, but that's not how the real world works.

[jdege]

im with the folks above. its one thing to go down the street to tell the neighbors to turn the music down, but to go down with a gun? there was no threat.

I see a clear threat, around 1:12.

[Stradawhovious]

<<<<<<< Waits for the trolling from the OP. We all know it's coming, it's just a matter of when.

[yuppiejr]

Interesting case.. some points that came to mind....

For some reason the argument that he should have minded his own business/not carried the gun rings of the "if she only hadn't dressed up like that she wouldn't have gotten gang raped" argument... The guy had a right to ask his neighbor to turn down the music, and since carrying a pistol is not out of the ordinary for many of us when we leave our homes I don't see how having a pistol is that out of the ordinary either.

When the gent with the camera confronted the neighbor and was sworn at/threatened for his trouble that prompted him to draw he could have de-assed the situation... however if I'm putting together the events in the video right there were numerous folks all around this guy and someone (or more than one person) went into the house and then bum rushed the guy (with a gun) after he'd warned them not to approach him or face deadly force... at which point he fired in self defense. I think part of the guy's issue was likely tunnel vision caused by the camera which limited his perception of evade/escape options.

Was it unwise to provoke a bunch of drunk partygoers with a video camera and threats of calling the cops? Probably... was his use of deadly force when attacked by somebody with a gun justified? Probably. There are still holes in the evidence presented to make a judgement on the guy but nobody seems to be calling out the homeowner, also a gun owner, for escalating the situation when they could have just as easily retreated into the home and turned down the music until the cops arrived to file their own complaint. The minute the guy walked out of the house with his gun and approached the cameraman it was game-over for someone.

Stupidity, excessive male ego, alcohol and guns do not mix, that's the lesson here.

[bulletproof]

The man appears to have been on public property when a truck "confronted him" and a number of people got out. It also appears that after the people who interacted with him learned he had a gun, they continued to confront him.

If I pissed on a bee hive it would be pretty stupid to go right back and try it again.