14 dead, 50 wounded at Colorado Theater during Dark Knight

View · by **illbits** on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:05 pm

Snakeman721 wrote:In all this talk about the tragedy, I was wondering what would happen if I were in that theater. A lot of people here said they would have grabbed their conceal carry gun and blasted back. Since I don't have my PTC yet, I thought about this for a while. One question keeps popping in my head. Why did NO ONE ever try tackling the A-hole? All the sheeple in the theater either ran, ducked down in the aisles, or sat and got shot. I'm sorry, but if you were in the first or second row and the person two or three seats from you just got shot, are you going to sit there and wait for your turn? Get up, run, and get shot in the back? NO ONE rushed this guy. Not even when he was going up the stairs and people where still on the floor between seats hiding. SOMEONE could have easily came up from behind and tackled him... like the heroes in AZ and the Gabby Gifford shooting. Sad state of affairs when the general public can't/won't defend themselves from imminent death.

The man who tackled the shooter in AZ was armed and did not shoot intentionally. Most people who "tackle" a shooter are armed and you NEVER hear about their guns in the media. I'm betting no one else in that theatre had a gun. It's hard to overcome evolutionary instincts when the Beast is having dinner in your presence.

View · by **Hmac** on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Snakeman721 wrote:In all this talk about the tragedy, I was wondering what would happen if I were in that theater. A lot of people here said they would have grabbed their conceal carry gun and blasted back. Since I don't have my PTC yet, I thought about this for a while. One question keeps popping in my head. Why did NO ONE ever try tackling the A-hole? All the sheeple in the theater either ran, ducked down in the aisles, or sat and got shot. I'm sorry, but if you were in the first or second row and the person two or three seats from you just got shot, are you going to sit there and wait for your turn? Get up, run, and get shot in the back? NO ONE rushed this guy. Not even when he was going up the stairs and people where still on the floor between seats hiding. SOMEONE could have easily came up from behind and tackled him... like the heroes in AZ and the Gabby Gifford shooting. Sad state of affairs when the general public can't/won't defend themselves from imminent death.

I suspect it all looks quite different, watching the news stories compared to being in the theater, dark, utter surprise, smoke, tear gas, eyes and throat burning, screaming, running, blood. All seems pretty simple sitting behind our computers, but as such an outrageous scenario unfolds right before our eyes, the mind rebels. Perhaps with training, a LOT of training, more than you have, more than I have, more than most cops have, a theater-goer might have the presence of mind to do something heroic as you propose. But I doubt it. I've taken Greg Sullivan's Urban Tactics courses and I've shot in the shoot house at Camp Ripley with this county's Tac Team. Those are confidence builders, but I have NO illusions about how these things can go down in the real world, at midnight, in the middle of watching a movie with my friends or family. I think it would be rare that, armed or not, someone is likely to go from mind-disengaged-popcorn-in-hand to Jack Bauer in time to do anything but try to survive. I'm not saying we shouldn't consider it, train for it, be situationally aware, and try...but IMHO it's unrealistic to wonder why nobody tackled the guy.

View · by **tazdevil** on Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:51 pm

Hmac wrote:
Snakeman721 wrote:In all this talk about the tragedy, I was wondering what would happen if I were in that theater. A lot of people here said they would have grabbed their conceal carry gun and blasted back. Since I don't have my PTC yet, I thought about this for a while. One question keeps popping in my head. Why did NO ONE ever try tackling the A-hole? All the sheeple in the theater either ran, ducked down in the aisles, or sat and got shot. I'm sorry, but if you were in the first or second row and the person two or three seats from you just got shot, are you going to sit there and wait for your turn? Get up, run, and get shot in the back? NO ONE rushed this guy. Not even when he was going up the stairs and people where still on the floor between seats hiding. SOMEONE could have easily came up from behind and tackled him... like the heroes in AZ and the Gabby Gifford shooting. Sad state of affairs when the general public can't/won't defend themselves from imminent death.

I suspect it all looks quite different, watching the news stories compared to being in the theater, dark, utter surprise, smoke, tear gas, eyes and throat burning, screaming, running, blood. All seems pretty simple sitting behind our computers, but as such an outrageous scenario unfolds right before our eyes, the mind rebels. Perhaps with training, a LOT of training, more than you have, more than I have, more than most cops have, a theater-goer might have the presence of mind to do something heroic as you propose. But I doubt it. I've taken Greg Sullivan's Urban Tactics courses and I've shot in the shoot house at Camp Ripley with this county's Tac Team. Those are confidence builders, but I have NO illusions about how these things can go down in the real world, at midnight, in the middle of watching a movie with my friends or family. I think it would be rare that, armed or not, someone is likely to go from mind-disengaged-popcorn-in-hand to Jack Bauer in time to do anything but try to survive. I'm not saying we shouldn't consider it, train for it, be situationally aware, and try...but IMHO it's unrealistic to wonder why nobody tackled the guy.

You also have to remember, he was not shooting in all directions, as people where only in front of him. Unlike the Arizona incident, where the shooter had to turn in many different directions (hence giving a potential tackler more chances to tackle). From what I know of theater emergency exits, unless someone ran around the outside to that door, and it was still propped open, there was no way to get behind him. Running towards a guy shooting your general direction may yield rather poor results for you.

View · by **Hobotorium** on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:36 pm

Taking on a guy in ballistic armor and an AR in that kind of situation (large crowd panicking and running everywhere, tear gas, dark) with a pistol seems pretty grim as well. Unless you are some elite handgun operator it just seems like this guy planned this out to be a no win situation for everyone in the theater.

View · by **bulletproof** on Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:04 pm

I propose the TSA takes over theater security. They've kept the airlines safe for 10 years so they should be able to prevent theater shootings.

View · by **tman** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:15 am

I can tell you that the next time I see someone get up and walk out the fire exit DURING a movie, I'll be making sure that the door is shut behind him.

View · by **Snakeman721** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:46 am

All valid points. And yeah, if you're 15 feet or more away, it would be suicide to try to rush the guy from the front. I was listening to survivor stories and one guy said he played dead while hot ejected brass was burning his arms. Um.....you're that close and you don't take the guy down? I'm not saying a PTC guy try to shoot him in a dark, smokey theater, I'm saying knock the guy down, grab his gun, do SOMETHING. He was wearing a gas mask...not a whole lot of peripheral vision in those things. Playing dead is a gamble...this nut job could have very well have "double tapped " the "bodies" as he came upon them. The survivor was extremely lucky that the shooter didn't do that. Granted, I wasn't there....just playing devil's advocate here.

View · by **xd ED** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:21 am

There's a news report today, citing an anonymous federal law enforcement official says the rifle used in the shooting jammed, due to a malfunction of the high capacity magazine.

Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates has said a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene of the shooting in suburban Denver. Oates said such a weapon was capable of firing 50 to 60 rounds a minute.

http://www.twincities.com/national/ci_21131581/ap-source-rifle-colo-theater-shooting-jammed

View · by **bstrawse** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:11 am

tman wrote:I can tell you that the next time I see someone get up and walk out the fire exit DURING a movie, I'll be making sure that the door is shut behind him.

That thought has crossed my mind at least a few times in the last couple days...
b

View · by **yuppiejr** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:34 am

Snakeman721 wrote:All valid points. And yeah, if you're 15 feet or more away, it would be suicide to try to rush the guy from the front. I was listening to survivor stories and one guy said he played dead while hot ejected brass was burning his arms. Um.....you're that close and you don't take the guy down? I'm not saying a PTC guy try to shoot him in a dark, smokey theater, I'm saying knock the guy down, grab his gun, do SOMETHING. He was wearing a gas mask...not a whole lot of peripheral vision in those things. Playing dead is a gamble...this nut job could have very well have "double tapped " the "bodies" as he came upon them. The survivor was extremely lucky that the shooter didn't do that. Granted, I wasn't there....just playing devil's advocate here.

You weren't there choking on tear gas, dealing with the total shock of the situation, watching people including women and children suffering horrific gunshot wounds and dying all around you while processing the noise of the movie + gunshots, the screaming victims, the poor lighting... People playing dead generally don't have their eyes open to plan their next internet operator tough guy move, guessing he wasn't in any mental state to play internet commando hero.

View · by **xd ED** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:09 am

bstrawse wrote:
tman wrote:I can tell you that the next time I see someone get up and walk out the fire exit DURING a movie, I'll be making sure that the door is shut behind him.

That thought has crossed my mind at least a few times in the last couple days...
b

I'm not much of a movie goer. But wouldn't the fire exits be alarmed? Is it SOP for those exits to be used?

View · by **bstrawse** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:19 am

I have no idea..

View · by **Countryfried Frank** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:30 am

xd ED wrote:I'm not much of a movie goer. But wouldn't the fire exits be alarmed? Is it SOP for those exits to be used?

Not necessarily. Additionally a lot of that type of door alarm are battery powered and the batteries can be neglected. That's a good point though; did anyone read if there were reports of an alarm sounding and the nature of the alarm if there was?

View · by **Hmac** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:02 am

Snakeman721 wrote: I was listening to survivor stories and one guy said he played dead while hot ejected brass was burning his arms. Um.....you're that close and you don't take the guy down? I'm not saying a PTC guy try to shoot him in a dark, smokey theater, I'm saying knock the guy down, grab his gun, do SOMETHING. He was wearing a gas mask...not a whole lot of peripheral vision in those things. Playing dead is a gamble...this nut job could have very well have "double tapped " the "bodies" as he came upon them. The survivor was extremely lucky that the shooter didn't do that. Granted, I wasn't there....just playing devil's advocate here.

You wouldn't have played dead, huh? You would have rushed the guy in that scenario and taken him down?

View · by **BemidjiDweller** on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:11 am

xd ED wrote:
bstrawse wrote:
tman wrote:I can tell you that the next time I see someone get up and walk out the fire exit DURING a movie, I'll be making sure that the door is shut behind him.

That thought has crossed my mind at least a few times in the last couple days...
b

I'm not much of a movie goer. But wouldn't the fire exits be alarmed? Is it SOP for those exits to be used?

During high school I worked at chain of theaters in the south metro, if those doors are anything like the doors used, they were big metal fire doors with no alarm. People regularly use them to go outside for a smoke/talk on the phone/leave then comeback in the front and back to their movie. Also, there would be no way to kick one down unless he drove his car through it first. I haven't seen any news on the story since two days ago.

Something else that has bothered me a bit, is how did some people not know there were gun shots in the theater right away. Gun shots are loud, especially in a room where sound is designed to be kept in. Even in the largest theater we had (293ish seats) there would be some serious ear ringing if someone shot an AR, as in, you would KNOW.