Tray-Tray's School Disicipline Records &Facebook 2B released

[Paul]

Yes. Without a motive, you're reduced to saying crime is done randomly.

The "why" always matters.

It doesn't always matter. It might matter to the human interest side of you. Maybe because you care about people and think they can be 'helped'... But motive isn't an element of a crime that I need to prove when charging someone. Intent might be, but not motive. They are two different things.

I think what you mean to say is "The why doesn't matter to me."

The reason I care is because of money. Solving root causes is frequently cheaper than dealing with the symptoms.

The why doesn't matter to the legal system.

[Heffay]

The why doesn't matter to the legal system.

Mitigating circumstances.

[Paul]

Watch a lot of TV Heff?

[Heffay]

Watch a lot of TV Heff?

Not nearly enough. But isn't a significant portion of a trial where the guilty verdict isn't in doubt centered around making the criminal look like a sympathetic person in order to reduce the sentence? For example, talking about how they were brought up in an abusive household to show that they too were a victim as well.

So yeah... motive does matter.

[Paul]

Watch a lot of TV Heff?

Not nearly enough. But isn't a significant portion of a trial where the guilty verdict isn't in doubt centered around making the criminal look like a sympathetic person in order to reduce the sentence? For example, talking about how they were brought up in an abusive household to show that they too were a victim as well.

So yeah... motive does matter.

Maybe to a degree... But not on a significant number of cases. In high profile cases you see on TV, or episodes of Matlock at the retirement home in Arizona, they may stress that. But my point is that it isn't as common as you think, and it is not an element of the crime.

You also seem to think that these folks need help, can be helped, or want to be helped. Some people do things simply because they are jerks. No underlying motive or social/mental cause.

[Heffay]

Maybe to a degree... But not on a significant number of cases. In high profile cases you see on TV, or episodes of Matlock at the retirement home in Arizona, they may stress that. But my point is that it isn't as common as you think, and it is not an element of the crime.

You also seem to think that these folks need help, can be helped, or want to be helped. Some people do things simply because they are jerks. No underlying motive or social/mental cause.

Sandusky sure seemed to try to paint himself as a sympathetic person. Not sure how effective that was...

I am under no illusion that all people can be helped. I get annoyed at campaigns to end homelessness and hunger and the like, because it's impossible to end it all. However, by having a thorough understanding of the causes, you can marshal your forces in the most effective manner to help the most people with the fewest resources. If you don't study the root causes and how to treat them though, you're basically just guessing on whether you're doing any good.

[Paul]

You should run for some sort of political office. I'd vote for you.

Although.... Knowing that you are possibly the biggest liberal that has ever visited this forum (so I hear ), you probably would have enough votes from illegal immigrants and dead people, that you wouldn't need mine.

[Heffay]

You should run for some sort of political office. I'd vote for you.

Although.... Knowing that you are possibly the biggest liberal that has ever visited this forum (so I hear ), you probably would have enough votes from illegal immigrants and dead people, that you wouldn't need mine.

You should see my get out the vote plans! Free booze and cigarettes to homeless people and condoms for old folks homes to vote for me. I'm going to bring them in by the busload!

[Dante]

Some people do things simply because they are jerks. No underlying motive or social/mental cause.

Or at least none that anyone bothered to look for.

[Paul]

Some people do things simply because they are jerks. No underlying motive or social/mental cause.

Or at least none that anyone bothered to look for.

Yes. Everyone is a victim. Even the guilty.

[Dante]

You should run for some sort of political office. I'd vote for you.

Although.... Knowing that you are possibly the biggest liberal that has ever visited this forum (so I hear ), you probably would have enough votes from illegal immigrants and dead people, that you wouldn't need mine.

You should see my get out the vote plans! Free booze and cigarettes to homeless people and condoms for old folks homes to vote for me. I'm going to bring them in by the busload!

It's unfortunate that several people will not see the humor in that statement since they believe things like that to be a common occurrence.

[Countryfried Frank]

Heffay,
I freely agree that motive does matter. Without knowing why bad things happen one has no hope of preventing them in the future but you have failed to answer my question.

Where does it say that motive is a required condition for battery to occur?

I'm not trying to convict anyone. I'm just saying that motive is not relevant in demonstrating that someone was being beaten.

[Heffay]

Heffay,
I freely agree that motive does matter. Without knowing why bad things happen one has no hope of preventing them in the future but you have failed to answer my question.

Where does it say that motive is a required condition for battery to occur?

I'm not trying to convict anyone. I'm just saying that motive is not relevant in demonstrating that someone was being beaten.

You're absolutely right. And as I have often said about this particular case, I believe they are both partially responsible for what happened that night. However, we only have one side of the story, and the source of that side isn't exactly reliable.

We know Zimmerman got his ass kicked. What we don't know is did it start out with him confronting Trayvon, or did Trayvon come up to Zimmerman after the extended chase. We do know that whatever happened, Zimmerman decided to shoot his way out of it. So the motive to try to figure out what happened was "Why did Trayvon come back to Zimmerman if he managed to get away?" That is where motive is important.

[jdege]

Solving root causes is frequently cheaper than dealing with the symptoms.

Human behaviors don't have root causes.

[Heffay]

Solving root causes is frequently cheaper than dealing with the symptoms.

Human behaviors don't have root causes.

Yes, they do. How the hell did you come to that conclusion??

Wait... are you the same guy that said modelling can't be used to predict the future?