School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

[GunClasses.Net]

ENOUGH! Can we debate ideas instead of people - PLEASE?

Thank you.

Sure thing Vlasek.

Considering I'd give bstrawse or Tman the time of day any day of the week considering their backgrounds and their experience.

Your or this other arrogant punk, I'd give a wet piss to considering that you sell your Florida class for something that's nothing special and most of the instructors here do for free.

Your reputation and your input are laid out LONG before you ever came into this thread. In short, even your credibility for your ideas (IMO) is suspect. However, Tman and Bstrawse have some damn sharp credentials and reputations that lead to great acceptance based on their words from past actions and reputation.


But what the hell do I know. I just some punk internet jockey......

I only ask for civility. Can we afford to turn on each other? I see no way it is relevant to this topic or this forum, but since it was profanely brought up ... if I cut people who just want a MN permit a $25 break, what's the problem? PM me please or start this as a new thread elsewhere for a civil discussion.

[sgruenhagen44]

ENOUGH! Can we debate ideas instead of people - PLEASE?

Thank you.

Your reputation and your input are laid out LONG before you ever came into this thread. In short, even your credibility for your ideas (IMO) is suspect. However, Tman and Bstrawse have some damn sharp credentials and reputations that lead to great acceptance based on their words from past actions and reputation.

Am I really expected to know the profession of all forum members on here? I was aware that T-man was a LEO but not bstrawse. I think the personal attacks were not needed farmerj. If you read my previous posts, I was saying how I thought our school LEO was cool and how she helped curtail altercations at my school. Sorry that over five years ago I liked to skip school every now and then. My point in saying that was to show that some schools have very poor security.

Its really sad IMO when we have blatant personal attacks like this on MNGT. Sure we all like to poke fun at some people now and then but this is getting ridiculous.

In all reality I have only met a few of you and so far all of you have been pretty cool guys. Even the guys that I disagree with a lot of their posts, I'm sure they are nice guys and I wouldn't mind spending a day on the range with them. Bottom line is that it's the internet. Sorry if I came off as an arrogant punk. I never have claimed to be an expert on this sight. I like killing game with my guns and grillin em up. Thats about the extent of my firearms training and skill.

I have been wanting to get more involved with the social gatherings of MNGT, but when I read personal attacks from others it makes me think otherwise. Especially when it comes from people's little MNGT cliques. I thought I would join this sight to discuss and DEBATE different things about firearms. The constant bickering does not help anything or our cause. Like bstrawse said previously, ITS TIME TO GET ORGANIZED. Not divide ourselves.

[farmerj]

your age shows your naivety.

Both Tman and Bstrawse made obvious comments that eluded to the fact that they KNOW about lockdown drills. While they were not direct, but:

bstrawse wrote:
I may know a thing or two about lockdown drills....

While not blatant, in street sense, that statement is plain (at least to me), this guy ISN'T being totally forth right in ALL he knows on the subject. Hell, I talk like that all the time. I see / hear a comment like that, I take notice and will/have started to either sit back and just let the person talk/share his knowledge, or I send them a message and ask them for more information.

Tman, because as you stated, you knew he was a LEO.

Bstrawse (IIRC) is the "FEMA-type" go-to guy for Target. He IS their specialist in these matters. His CV is posted in the recent thread he commented on in the shooting clubs forum where he was resently elected an office for the Oakdale gun club.

[GunClasses.Net]

Am I really expected to know the profession of all forum members on here? I was aware that T-man was a LEO but not bstrawse. I think the personal attacks were not needed farmerj. If you read my previous posts, I was saying how I thought our school LEO was cool and how she helped curtail altercations at my school. Sorry that over five years ago I liked to skip school every now and then. My point in saying that was to show that some schools have very poor security.

Oh, I understood your point well, and I appreciate your perspective because I never thought about it that way. I didn't think you were denigrating anyone. Sometimes the anonymity of the internet just leads people to say things they'd never say in person to someone and call people names. I'm fairly used to it, though I do find it disappointing - and I guess I should have just ignored it.

As to the question of professions, it would also be interesting ALL the professions - as in, who is a full time firearms instructor, versus who does it part time in conjunction with a full time career...

ps: I changed my pricing in my classes earlier today to one reasonably low price to the public and a lower price to gun club members - no difference in MN and FL, as the Q1 2013 special

[sgruenhagen44]

your age shows your naivety.

Both Tman and Bstrawse made obvious comments that eluded to the fact that they KNOW about lockdown drills. While they were not direct, but:

bstrawse wrote:
I may know a thing or two about lockdown drills....

While not blatant, in street sense, that statement is plain (at least to me), this guy ISN'T being totally forth right in ALL he knows on the subject. Hell, I talk like that all the time. I see / hear a comment like that, I take notice and will/have started to either sit back and just let the person talk/share his knowledge, or I send them a message and ask them for more information.

Tman, because as you stated, you knew he was a LEO.

Bstrawse (IIRC) is the "FEMA-type" go-to guy for Target. He IS their specialist in these matters. His CV is posted in the recent thread he commented on in the shooting clubs forum where he was resently elected an office for the Oakdale gun club.

What am I naive about? This is also a genuine question by the way.

Our lockdown drills included the following... Lights off, door locked, everyone away from their seats and against the wall that has minimal view from the window. I just think it could use some perfecting thats all.

[bstrawse]

I may know a thing or two about lockdown drills....

I didn't say no one here knew anything about them. Just saying I have participated in them as a student and they don't seem like that great of a plan... Also I was also a student who would leave school and come back here and there and never got caught either, this proves schools need added security. I never got a truancy What is your experience bstrawse? (this is a genuine question)

Sorry - wasn't trying to be a jerk above, just wanted to point out there are a few others here that have some pretty extensive experience around such things.

They have their places (lockdowns), I guess. Sometimes it's the only option you have, sometimes there are other choices to be made.

I'm a 19 year corporate security veteran for a Fortune 30 Global Corporation - last many years in crisis management and so on. More on me here....

[bstrawse]

Your reputation and your input are laid out LONG before you ever came into this thread. In short, even your credibility for your ideas (IMO) is suspect. However, Tman and Bstrawse have some damn sharp credentials and reputations that lead to great acceptance based on their words from past actions and reputation.


But what the hell do I know. I just some punk internet jockey......

Thanks for the kind words
B

[bstrawse]

Am I really expected to know the profession of all forum members on here? I was aware that T-man was a LEO but not bstrawse.

Just to be clear - I wasn't offended.

And also - Tman is a full-time LEO with a long career. I worked in law enforcement for less than two years before I ran away to the private sector where the money and women are

[sgruenhagen44]

I may know a thing or two about lockdown drills....

I didn't say no one here knew anything about them. Just saying I have participated in them as a student and they don't seem like that great of a plan... Also I was also a student who would leave school and come back here and there and never got caught either, this proves schools need added security. I never got a truancy What is your experience bstrawse? (this is a genuine question)

Sorry - wasn't trying to be a jerk above, just wanted to point out there are a few others here that have some pretty extensive experience around such things.

They have their places (lockdowns), I guess. Sometimes it's the only option you have, sometimes there are other choices to be made.

I'm a 19 year corporate security veteran for a Fortune 30 Global Corporation - last many years in crisis management and so on. More on me here....

ANd that makes your Opinion very valid!!!! And thats why I asked! Glad you answered my question. After farmerjs rant I thought you might be a LEO like T-man lol.

[bstrawse]

Here's what I'll say on lockdowns. Keep in mind, this is my personal view, and may or may not represent that of my employer.

The premise on lockdown is similar to what was listed previously in this thread:
* Secure yourself in a secure space
* Lights off, blinds pulled, etc, etc
* Lock the door - Barricade the door if you can
* Get absolutely quiet
* Get something you could use as a weapon (not always encouraged by some)
* Hunker down and wait for the good guys

To be effective, this approach has to be defined, practiced (regularly), and improved (ongoing). Schools do this to varying degrees of success.

You can have opportunities around this in terms of lacking defined process, not training staff / students / employees, lacking physical security equipment (locks on doors, and so on), not exercising, not taking it seriously, etc.

There are some extensive guides around how to do this - here's one local example
MN Comprehensive School Safety Guide (From MN Homeland Security & Emergency Management)

Now, I'd prefer to be armed and willing to respond, or at least have a firearm with me when I'm in lockdown. I suspect most, if not all, of you would feel the same. But that's not always feasible due to an individual's personal choice, their employer's policies, the facility policy for where they happen to be visiting, or state/federal laws.

[farmerj]

your age shows your naivety.

What am I naive about? This is also a genuine question by the way.

Learn to read peoples "body language" and satirical comments. It's hard on the net at times.

ANd that makes your Opinion very valid!!!! And thats why I asked! Glad you answered my question. After farmerjs rant I thought you might be a LEO like T-man lol.

T-man and I have had our moments on the forum. But I still respect him for his position and his job. It's a crappy one more times than not. Bstrawse, eh, he's just a corporate pansy who couldn't make it in the real world. ( oh wait, he's a good guy too).

Me, I retired Army guard and was a small arms instructor for 16 of my 18+ years. I shot competitively both in and outside the guard. One of my last positions was not only an MP squad leader, but also the Unit Marksmanship Coordinator as well as SRT Team commander. I teach, (although much less lately) MN permit to carry classes as well. I have first hand knowledge and experience in the MN permit to carry permitting experience that few, if ANY, instructors have. I was also formerly an NRA instructor and coordinated Cokato I and II NRA instructor courses that were taught by DonL and Ttoussi.

And best of all, I am a banned outcast from that "other" mn gun forum...

[sgruenhagen44]

well i guess callin names will get ya booted from a forum. I'll work on reading body language on the net. A lot of people don't get my subtle satire on here, like my comment on silencers from a previous thread. Anyway... If you want someone to see it your way or at least understand where you are coming from, throwing insults is usually not the best strategy. I may be only 22 years old and maybe even "Naive" by farmerjs standards but I have figured this out in life. This could be my naivety speaking though. If my way doesn't work, I'll be sure to jump to conclusions and throw insults.

[GunClasses.Net]

well i guess callin names will get ya booted from a forum. I'll work on reading body language on the net. A lot of people don't get my subtle satire on here, like my comment on silencers from a previous thread. Anyway... If you want someone to see it your way or at least understand where you are coming from, throwing insults is usually not the best strategy. I may be only 22 years old and maybe even "Naive" by farmerjs standards but I have figured this out in life. This could be my naivety speaking though. If my way doesn't work, I'll be sure to jump to conclusions and throw insults.

Well, FWIW, I feel like I've noticed personal attacks/digs on MNGT more often than other places; I don't get why, but that's what I perceive. I'm particularly sensitive to this because at this critical time in the issues, we just cannot afford to get crabby with each other, turn on each other, and verbally gun each other down. Our focus needs to be on helping each other - one of the reasons we carry a firearm - and that should be seen on public message boards like this.

Which reminds me... people have said some very ridiculous things online, not just MNGT, thinking no one will notice. Do you realize that this forum isn't locked down and anyone anywhere can read it, including members of the media and politicians? We are NOT as anonymous on here as you'd think. I bring it up because I don't ever want to hear:
"Members of the firearm community actually have a lot to say on the issue. Some of their arguments are, quite frankly, shocking. On the popular message board, MNGunTalk, one user said ... ___ ... and there are several more controversial comments as ... ___ ... It gets you into the mindset of the gun culture. They think..."

So beyond being just courteous and respectful to one another, we must each continue to think carefully about everything we post here and elsewhere, and consider if we want that reported/recirculated before clicking Submit. In a very real way, when you post here, you're possibly speaking for more than just yourself.
/rant

[GunClasses.Net]

And, back to the topic at hand: Here is an interesting article on the subject of prevention (and response), from 2 years ago. The author says we're in denial to not take steps to confront attackers effectively in schools:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... is-denial/

10-43: All Units... with Doug Wyllie, PoliceOne Editor in Chief
Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial
Preventing juvenile mass murder in American schools is the job of police officers, school teachers, and concerned parents

And, Ayoob suggests arming school personnel:
http://ht.ly/gcwGZ

I don't think we need to make schools like prisons, but I'm all for the principal having a shotgun locked in his/her office.

[tman]

Am I really expected to know the profession of all forum members on here? I was aware that T-man was a LEO but not bstrawse.

Just to be clear - I wasn't offended.

And also - Tman is a full-time LEO with a long career. I worked in law enforcement for less than two years before I ran away to the private sector where the money and women are

I wasn't offended.

I took the time to look at bstrawse's CV on linked in.

His CV can kick mine up and down the block.

I'm just a middle aged guy who plays cops and robbers for a living.

T-man and I have had our moments on the forum. But I still respect him for his position and his job.

I really appreciate that comment, because we HAVE had some real oppositional moments. I think we might get along in real life.