School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

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Armed responses to mass shootings by civilians works

Postby GunClasses.Net on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:56 am

It's not just the guy in Oregon who may have given pause to that shooter's destruction... who has really heard much in the news about these three? Granted, they are a bit dated, but they show that an armed response to a mass shooter by a citizen can, and does, work:

http://www.naturalnews.com/038404_massacres_gun_owners_defense.html

This site cites the sources of the below:

we bring just some of the most recent high-profile incidents - including what could have been additional school massacres - that were stopped by law-abiding citizens using their Second Amendment rights to protect themselves and others. Scores of individual uses that never get reported are not included here:

Pearl High School, Mississippi: This incident began the morning of Oct. 1, 1997, when 16-year-old student Luke Windham entered the school with a rifle. Wearing only an orange jumpsuit and a trench coat and making no effort to hide his weapon, he initially entered the school and shot and killed two students, injuring seven others. He was stopped by assistant principal Joel Myrick, who retrieved a .45 cal. handgun from the glove box of his truck.

"I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick at the time, who went on to become principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

Appalachia Law School, Virginia: On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, a former student from Nigeria, arrived on the campus of the school with a handgun around 1:00 p.m. and immediately killed three people, at least two of them at point-blank range. Two students - Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges - both retrieved handguns from their vehicles and confronted Odighizuwa. As former police officers, both men were trained to subdue suspects but the fact is they were on the scene and armed, and helped prevent more killings.

Muskegon, Michigan: From the Aug. 23, 1995, issue of the Muskegon Chronicle: "Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their 'gnawing hunger for crack cocaine' fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back. Store owner Clare Cooper was returning behind the counter after showing three of the four conspirators some jewelry, when one of the group pulled out a gun and shot him four times in the back. Stumbling for the safety of his bullet-proof glass-encased counter, Cooper managed to grab his shotgun and fire as the suspects fled."

Colorado Springs, Colo.: On Dec. 9, 2007, gunman Mathew Murray, 24, launched an armed attack against the parishioners of the New Life Church that ultimately left two innocent victims dead. But the toll could have been much higher, were it not for the heroic actions of former police officer Jeanne Assam from Minnesota. In an interview she said she very nearly decided not to go to church that morning but because she saw a headline on her computer indicating that two young people were murdered and a training center for Christian missionaries about 70 miles away in the Denver suburb of Arvada, she changed her mind. Murray shot a total of five people before an armed Assam shot and killed him. There were about 7,000 people at the church at the time of the attack.

"Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns to defend themselves each year. Out of that number, 400,000 believe that but for their firearms, they would have been dead," columnist Larry Elder wrote in July, following the shooting tragedy at the premier of the latest Batman movie in Aurora, Colo.
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Young men today are lost, confused, and NOT growing up?

Postby GunClasses.Net on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:34 am

There is even a name for this generation of young men that does not want to grow up. It is called the "Peter Pan generation". They want to enjoy the benefits of being grown up without ever taking on the responsibilities. A member of this "Peter Pan generation" recent wrote an article for the Daily Mail in which he discussed what he and his friends are going through... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176281/Generation-refuse-grow-No-mortgage-No-marriage-No-children-No-career-plan-Like-30-somethings-Marianne-Power-admits-shes-.html

I haven’t yet had to grow up so, well, I haven’t.

Reckless, irresponsible and immature? Yes. But at least I can take comfort in the fact I am not alone.

Last week, I read that there is even a name for people such as me. We are the ‘Peter Pan generation’; a sizeable group of 25 to 40-year-olds who exist in a state of extended adolescence, avoiding the trappings of responsibility — marriage, mortgage, children — for as long as possible.

‘Our society is full of lost boys and girls hanging out at the edge of adulthood,’ says Professor Frank Furedi, a sociologist who has been studying this phenomenon, at the University of Kent.

‘Another word sometimes used to describe these people is “adultescent” — generally defined as someone who refuses to settle down and make commitments, and who would rather go on partying into middle age.’


Young men in America didn't always behave this way. Several decades ago, men in America moved away from home, got married and had children much earlier than they do now. But the young men of today seem to want to put off the "markers of adulthood" for as long as possible. The following is from an outstanding article by Sandy Hingston... http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the-sorry-lives-and-confusing-times-of-today-s-young-men/

Sociologists cite five “markers” or “milestones” that have traditionally defined our notion of adulthood: finishing school, moving away from the parental home, becoming financially independent, getting married, and having a child. In 1960, 65 percent of men had ticked off all five by age 30; by 2000, only a third had. The experts have plenty of explanations for what’s come to be called “extended adolescence” or “emerging adulthood”—or what New York Times columnist David Brooks calls the “Odyssey Years.” They blame helicopter parents, the burden of student loan debt, much higher poverty rates among young people (nearly half of all Americans ages 25 to 34 live below the national level), and a dearth of vo-tech training and manufacturing jobs. Almost 60 percent of parents are now giving money to their grown kids—an average of $38,340 per child in the years between ages 18 and 34. Whatever happened to the son looking after his mom?


So why is all of this happening? The Economic Collapse Blog suggests:

Well, there are a whole host of reasons. But certainly parents and our education system have to bear much of the blame. In the old days, young men were taught what it means to "be a man", and morality was taught to young men both by their parents and in the schools. But today, most young men have very little understanding of what "manhood" is, and our society has taught them that morality doesn't really matter. Instead, television and movies constantly portray young men as sex-obsessed slackers that just want to party all the time, so that is what many of our young men have become.

How much better off would our society be if we had trained this generation of young men to love, honor, protect and take care of others?

How much better off would our society be if we had nurtured the manhood of our young men instead of teaching them to be ashamed of it?

How much better off would our society be if we had disciplined our young men and taught them morality when they were getting off track instead of just letting them do whatever they wanted?

The following are several stats that seem to indicate that there is something seriously wrong with young men in America today...

    Males account for approximately 70 percent of all Ds and Fs in U.S. public schools.

    The average American girl spends 5 hours a week playing video games. The average American boy spends 13 hours a week playing video games.

    The average young American will spend 10,000 hours playing video games before the age of 21.

    One study discovered that 88 percent of all Americans between the ages of 8 and 18 play video games, and that video game addiction is approximately four times as common among boys as it is among girls.

    At this point, 15-year-olds that attend U.S. public schools do not even rank in the top half of all industrialized nations when it comes to math or science literacy.

    In 2011, SAT scores for young men were the worst that they had been in 40 years.

    According to a survey conducted by the National Geographic Society, only 37 percent of all Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 can find the nation of Iraq on a map.

    Pornography addiction is a major problem among our young men. An astounding 30 percent of all Internet traffic now goes to pornography websites, and one survey found that 25 percent of all employees that have Internet access in the United States even visit sex websites while they are at work.

    According to one survey, 29 percent of all Americans in the 25 to 34 year old age bracket are still living with their parents.

    Young men are nearly twice as likely to live with their parents as young women the same age are.

    Today, an all-time low 44.2% of Americans between the ages of 25 and 34 are married.

    Young men are about four times more likely to commit suicide as young women are.

So what do you think about this generation of young men in America?


Kind of puts it all in a little different perspective than the pundits' soundbytes, doesn't it? It's not young women who go armed and massacre the innocent. Is it time to look at what it means to be a young man in America today that's different from before all this violence?
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Snakeman721 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Bravo! Dead spot on! :iagree:
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby LePetomane on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:17 pm

In a discussion with a psychiatrist friend, some shrinks don't see these patients as criminals.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby sgruenhagen44 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:36 pm

LePetomane wrote:In a discussion with a psychiatrist friend, some shrinks don't see these patients as criminals.


Criminally insane?
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:43 pm

sgruenhagen44 wrote:
LePetomane wrote:In a discussion with a psychiatrist friend, some shrinks don't see these patients as criminals.


Criminally insane?


That's not helpful.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby sgruenhagen44 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Not everyone can be helped. It's just a fact. IMO if you're a pedophile you obviously have a few screws loose. You're still a criminal though. If you're a threat to society then you should be locked up, regardless of the reason.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:54 pm

sgruenhagen44 wrote:Not everyone can be helped. It's just a fact. IMO if you're a pedophile you obviously have a few screws loose. You're still a criminal though. If you're a threat to society then you should be locked up, regardless of the reason.


Thank you for being part of the problem.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby sgruenhagen44 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:05 pm

Well am I wrong? I get it, people need the opportunity to find help. I don't dispute that. But once you kill a bunch of people you are a criminal regardless of your mental state. l

I'm a young man with tons of college debt and have not settled down and got married and a relationship of over 3 years ended. I didn't handle it by killing a bunch of children.

There are tons of terrible things that happen in life. I can start makin quite a large list of stuff that has happened to me other than the stuff posted above. People who are aware of mentally unstable family members or friends should do something before it's too late. I am speaking from experience with this. I am glad we got my family member help and that she has stopped harming herself and others emotionally.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby LePetomane on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:07 pm

Call them what you want but their victims are just as dead.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby TTS on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:12 pm

Heffay wrote:
sgruenhagen44 wrote:Not everyone can be helped. It's just a fact. IMO if you're a pedophile you obviously have a few screws loose. You're still a criminal though. If you're a threat to society then you should be locked up, regardless of the reason.


Thank you for being part of the problem.


What did he say that was incorrect? Depending on the study pedophiles have a 35-50% recidivism rate, much higher if you look at offenders who abuse children under 16.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Mn01r6 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:14 pm

TTS wrote:
Heffay wrote:
sgruenhagen44 wrote:Not everyone can be helped. It's just a fact. IMO if you're a pedophile you obviously have a few screws loose. You're still a criminal though. If you're a threat to society then you should be locked up, regardless of the reason.


Thank you for being part of the problem.


What did he say that was incorrect? Depending on the study pedophiles have a 35-50% recidivism rate, much higher if you look at offenders who abuse children under 16.


Mike Hatch would agree and he isn't exactly a right wing nut job. So would Lori Swanson.

ETA I think Heffay is beating the drum of dont continue the stigma, which I agree with but don't think it is the substantial, insurmountable barrier to getting help he does. The medications have bad side effects and people do choose not to take them for that and other reasons.
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School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby GunClasses.Net on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:36 am

Mn01r6 wrote:ETA I think Heffay is beating the drum of dont continue the stigma, which I agree with but don't think it is the substantial, insurmountable barrier to getting help he does. The medications have bad side effects and people do choose not to take them for that and other reasons.


I agree that the stigma of mental illness needs to be addressed, wholeheartedly. Question: How do we approach a friend, family member, coworker, or acquaintance we know is struggling, and urge them to seek help? I think it's even HARDER today to not stigmatize it, now that mental illness is so prominently tied to the school shooting. I liked the movie "What About Bob", so I'll call our person we're concerned for "Bob". Well, now, if we aren't careful how we approach "Bob", Bob may hear our expression of concern as "Hey, Bob, I'm kinda scared you're going to shoot up a school, too!" Not all mental illness manifests violence and we certainly don't want to offend the person we're trying to help.

One idea, and I like it, is "Hey, Bob, it sounds to me like _(bad memories, emotions, good days and bad days)__ may be taking a lot of your energy, and I want you to know that I really care about you. This may be bigger than you; you might just want to talk with someone about it. Your happiness in life is very important to me and I can always listen, and I might know someone who is really good at helping with this stuff. I know her from ___; her name is ___, and I'm sure she'd be a great listener. It would make me very happy to introduce you. I think you'll enjoy talking with her. She loves to help people look at things from a little different perspective than before, and I think she's amazing at it. May I see if she's free, and introduce you to her over coffee next week?"
But I don't think that's as as good as it can be... how would you improve it? Has anyone here had to have 'the talk' with someone they are concerned for? Was it just you, or was it a group intervention? How did it go? Did the person actually get help?

Also, there is a great resource on the Michigan NAMI site "A Resource Guide for Families Dealing With Mental Illness" http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDCH- ... 2671_7.pdf
I highly recommend it. Crisis Intervention is on p11.

Approaching someone who needs help is just step one; then comes the next challenge; helping someone who engaged a mental health professional continue with the treatment... coming off and then restarting meds is known to be a very difficult thing, and so can stopping and starting therapy.

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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:12 am

GunClasses.Net wrote:I agree that the stigma of mental illness needs to be addressed, wholeheartedly. Question: How do we approach a friend, family member, coworker, or acquaintance we know is struggling, and urge them to seek help? I think it's even HARDER today to not stigmatize it, now that mental illness is so prominently tied to the school shooting.


A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals. They are victims who unintentionally committed a criminal act.

Yes. I'm saying that the shooters in these cases were also victims. That doesn't mean they aren't responsible for the consequences of their actions, but it does mean we also treat them with empathy for their situation.

I don't think a lot of people here have it in them to do this though. Everyone seems to want to find someone to blame and pay the price.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby elroy on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:01 pm

Heffay wrote:A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals.


So the person who premeditatedly murdered 27 people last week should not be considered a criminal? I strongly disagree.

Mental illness or not. Society has to hold people accountable for their actions. If they can't control themselves, too bad. If they didn't mean to, too bad.

I'm all for treating and helping people that need help, but if they are dangerous, they must not be free in society and once they do something violent, they should be gone.
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