School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

[Heffay]

A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals.

So the person who premeditatedly murdered 27 people last week should not be considered a criminal? I strongly disagree.

Mental illness or not. Society has to hold people accountable for their actions. If they can't control themselves, too bad. If they didn't mean to, too bad.

Great. That will really help encourage them to go seek help. Let's have people who have difficulty making rational decisions make rational decisions.

Again, part of the problem.

[GunClasses.Net]

A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals.

So the person who premeditatedly murdered 27 people last week should not be considered a criminal? I strongly disagree.

Mental illness or not. Society has to hold people accountable for their actions. If they can't control themselves, too bad. If they didn't mean to, too bad.

I'm all for treating and helping people that need help, but if they are dangerous, they must not be free in society and once they do something violent, they should be gone.

Like John Hinkley Jr.

I've learned a LOT the last week reading this forum and reading online articles by Ayoob, Gresham, the police organizations, etc. Here are a few takeaways I've gotten from the debate over making schools safer, as pertaining to school shooting prevention. I'd love to hear what people on here like Brian Strawser think of the following:

1. We must be as mindful of measures to prevent gun violence as we are to prevent fires in schools. How many kids die from school fires in the US? Zero. It just never happens, because we’ve hardened our schools to that threat. What have we done to make a school safer from violence (of ANY kind, not just guns)? The library at Columbine was all glass to the hallway – a fishbowl of targets for Harris and Kleibold to shoot into it. Oops. But, I’m sure the walls were all fire-retardant! Has that kind of thing been properly and thoroughly addressed?

2. We want to be careful who we turn responsibility for our security over to. If we continue to think someone else should take care of us, we can only guarantee that we will not always be taken care of. I am a staunch supporter of self-sufficiency and being “your own first responder”. I want the principal of the school, like a captain of his/her ship, to be able to take control of this kind of situation and stop the threat. I do not know what that looks like, and that should actually vary depending on the school's particular security needs, nor do I care as long as it’s effective: if they don’t want to lock a semiautomatic shotgun to their office wall, then maybe we give them tasers. I no longer give an arrogant da*m how it’s done if it’s done discretely and effectively:

a. Train a few people in each school in practical, hand-to-hand fighting skills like Krav Maga. It will serve them outside work as well.

b. Give the secretary at the front desk, who gets the gun aimed at her first, a taser and some mace.

c. The front offices of schools are the gateway to the school. If an active shooter takes out the front office, the school is wide open as a shoot-m-up video game. Give the principal a shotgun or some kind of tool to end the threat, and make sure the walls are as bullet resistant as they are fire retardant. No more glass doors, fishbowl libraries, etc. Give everyone in the front office a panic button to lock the door to the school; and make it a darned good door on a darned good frame, not some flimsy bamboo crap that a gun can mow down.

d. Give the schools something like fire alarms in the front office and in the hallways and in every classroom to put the school on immediate lockdown; make them activate with an electronic access card only faculty and staff have. Why do the doors in the hallways close automatically when a fire alarm is tripped, but when there’s an active shooter, each teacher has the responsibility of closing and locking his/her classroom door, while corralling and accounting for all of the students? Shouldn’t the classrooms become safe on their own? If a teacher needs to reach out into the hall to let a kid in, (s)he can override from inside.

e. Train every person in school how to treat trauma of any kind – gunshot wounds and otherwise. Cops don’t usually jump in with both feet, and paramedics don’t come in until the cops have deemed the scene safe. Most times, these shootings last a few seconds to a few minutes. Plenty of people are left standing around afterward; enable them to help the wounded during those crucial minutes to reduce the death toll.

4. Schools are where kids learn how to deal with the world. If they perceive the answer to security threats is to pay a government employee or corporation to gun-up, then we will only see more of that, and we see tons of it already, but it would only get more intrusive into our daily lives. The security measures should be there but not in their faces; this isn’t 1938 Germany. Like sprinklers and fire extinguishers, these measures should be there, but unobtrusive – they shouldn’t be constant reminders that the school may burn down at any moment. We don't need to traumatize our kids with some constant specter of a threat. (Like if someone has guns for home protection, the kids might know they’re there, but that doesn’t mean dad has breakfast at the table wearing his 1911 and mom does the laundry wearing her Beretta.)

[Paul]

I think you could find better alternatives when planning for an active shooter scenario than instructing teachers in Krav Maga. I wouldn't expect or want them to charge towards an armed gunman, while being unarmed.

[GunClasses.Net]

I think you could find better alternatives when planning for an active shooter scenario than instructing teachers in Krav Maga. I wouldn't expect or want them to charge towards an armed gunman, while being unarmed.

Well, it's certainly not the best of all possible alternatives. And, if you can get away, of course - get away. Nobody sane will instruct someone who's 15 feet from a rifleman to charge him in a frontal assault.

But, I bet if you turn to find you're unarmed and 5 feet away from imminent and certain death, and no better alternatives are available at that moment, you'd fight for your life however which way you can. That's not such a stretch, is it?

[Paul]

But, I bet if you turn to find you're unarmed and 5 feet away from imminent and certain death, you'd fight for your life however which way you can. That's not such a stretch, is it?

No, that's not a stretch... But practical application... If you send a teacher (or anyone) through a one or two day Krav Maga class, they won't remember it if/when that SHTF scenario comes unless they train/practice those techniques on a very regular basis. And 99% of them never would. It is what it is. Is taking self defense training, such as Krav Maga bad? No, not at all... But it seems to be an impractical use of school resources.

[LePetomane]

A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals. They are victims who unintentionally committed a criminal act.

Victims of what? I probably need more protection from these random nuts than I do from dope dealers and street thugs in the hood. Ridiculous thought process.

[Heffay]

A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals. They are victims who unintentionally committed a criminal act.

Victims of what?

Victims of their own bodies. Like cancer patients.

[LePetomane]

A good start would to stop referring to them as criminals. They are victims who unintentionally committed a criminal act.

Victims of what?

Victims of their own bodies. Like cancer patients.

Three members of my family (including myself) have been treated for various cancers and do not consider themselves victims and nor do I. Cancer patients do not go on shooting sprees like these nuts.

I look forward to your response.

[Heffay]

I guess the brain isn't one of your vital organs. For most people it's the most complex organ in their body and also subject to failure through no fault of their own.

[LePetomane]

So all of us are fragile beings who have yet to snap?

[Heffay]

So all of us are fragile beings who have yet to snap?

What part of mental don't you get?

You're probably one of those guys that think people with anxiety or depression should just stop worrying so much. All those troops with PTSD? Pussies, amirite?

[Holland&Holland]

So all of us are fragile beings who have yet to snap?

What part of mental don't you get?

You're probably one of those guys that think people with anxiety or depression should just stop worrying so much. All those troops with PTSD? Pussies, amirite?

Are you saying that mental illness then means you have no responsibility for your actions?

[LePetomane]

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[Heffay]

So all of us are fragile beings who have yet to snap?

What part of mental don't you get?

You're probably one of those guys that think people with anxiety or depression should just stop worrying so much. All those troops with PTSD? Pussies, amirite?

Are you saying that mental illness then means you have no responsibility for your actions?

Not exactly. It's more complicated than that. They are responsible for the consequences of their actions. And of course there is a wide range of mental illness, so not all actions they take may be free of responsibility. Anxiety isn't going to cause you to shoot up a bus. Most likely.

However, we *cannot* keep treating them like criminals, or calling them nuts. In their world, it's 100% real and affects them just as much as losing a leg or having cancer. They symptoms are different, and can affect people other than themselves. That's the scary part that causes people to react with fear, which just perpetuates the problem.

Maybe a comparison to a contagious disease would be better. A contagious disease that you don't know you have.

[Holland&Holland]

Not exactly. It's more complicated than that. They are responsible for the consequences of their actions. And of course there is a wide range of mental illness, so not all actions they take may be free of responsibility. Anxiety isn't going to cause you to shoot up a bus. Most likely.

However, we *cannot* keep treating them like criminals, or calling them nuts. In their world, it's 100% real and affects them just as much as losing a leg or having cancer. They symptoms are different, and can affect people other than themselves. That's the scary part that causes people to react with fear, which just perpetuates the problem.

Maybe a comparison to a contagious disease would be better. A contagious disease that you don't know you have.

So what do you propose? Dude shoots someone, this situation aside... What do you do at that point?