School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Paul on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:15 am

Heffay wrote:
Paul wrote:Right... But just because someone kills multiple people (in general) they are mentally ill... Kill one person and you're just an *******...?

Again, I don't disagree with the thought that more station needs to be spent on mental health issues, but it seems to simplify the situation too much.


Simplification is a good point. I have to to some degree, but the number of people you kill (whether zero or a hundred) is not tied to your mental state. However, if you kill more than zero, mental illness screening should probably be done. And if
as a society we treat it properly (like cancer), it'll start happening before anyone gets killed.


Great. As long as we both agree I'm right.




:P
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby farmerj on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:28 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
farmerj wrote:Due process means that there will be SEVERAL hearings. Some of them several months apart from each other. 6-9 months even at times.

When it's shown that a person is seriously a danger to self or others enough that there is justification for commitment, taking 18 months to commit them is no longer an option.


But if you are the person being committed should there not be some due process? I agree the time is excessive much of that has to do with resources though.


Then you are getting into what Paul and Heffay are debating. But it HAS to be shortened.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby tman on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:49 am

Locking someone up CAN be done fairly quickly. If they aren't an IMMEDIATE danger to themselves or others, however, it's not going to happen.

Most of the time, the mentally ill aren't dangerous; they're just weird. We in law enforcement don't get calls until SOMETHING has happened already. Most of the time, the "subjects" have already been taking meds. They either have stopped taking their meds, the meds are no longer effective, or they've been abusing substances.

I understand the desire to re-label, or UN-label the mentally ill, but I don't think the "stigma" of the label is keeping people from being treated.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:57 am

tman wrote:I understand the desire to re-label, or UN-label the mentally ill, but I don't think the "stigma" of the label is keeping people from being treated.


The stigma is keeping the family members of the mentally ill from talking about their problems with people who may be able to help, support them, etc.

Crazy uncle Eddie never had a chance, because when he was crazy nephew Eddie nobody bothered to talk to him, and his family didn't know what to do, and were afraid to ask.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby tman on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:03 am

Heffay wrote:
Crazy uncle Eddie never had a chance, because when he was crazy nephew Eddie nobody bothered to talk to him, and his family didn't know what to do, and were afraid to ask.



I'd LIKE to buy this argument....I just don't. Not in today's "nothing is your fault, there must be something wrong" society.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:08 am

tman wrote:Not in today's "nothing is your fault, there must be something wrong" society.


I guess I just don't see the same society you do.
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Re: Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental hea

Postby tman on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:13 pm

Heffay wrote:
tman wrote:Not in today's "nothing is your fault, there must be something wrong" society.


I guess I just don't see the same society you do.


What I'm trying to say is that the process and the system's been in place for decades to identify these people when they're still children.

They're the ones in the school system with individual education plans, social workers, truancy officers and annual reviews.

They may not be ID'd as, "likely to become a spree killer," but they've been noted as, "not the same as little Johnny," and have been provided special services by the gatekeepers.
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Re: Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental hea

Postby Holland&Holland on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:56 pm

tman wrote:
Heffay wrote:
tman wrote:Not in today's "nothing is your fault, there must be something wrong" society.


I guess I just don't see the same society you do.


What I'm trying to say is that the process and the system's been in place for decades to identify these people when they're still children.

They're the ones in the school system with individual education plans, social workers, truancy officers and annual reviews.

They may not be ID'd as, "likely to become a spree killer," but they've been noted as, "not the same as little Johnny," and have been provided special services by the gatekeepers.


See here is the problem, if we are saying that if you have an IEP you need to be committed and can not have guns then there are many memebers of this very site that need to be.
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Re: Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental hea

Postby tman on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:43 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:See here is the problem, if we are saying that if you have an IEP you need to be committed and can not have guns then there are many memebers of this very site that need to be.


I'm certainly NOT saying that. There are all kinds of reasons to have an IEP, none of which are: paranoidschizophrenicoffmedsandreadytokill.

What I AM saying, is that the "system" is already identifying those with emotional/behavioral issues at a young age.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby crbutler on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:51 pm

The basic issues are money and bed space as far as dealing with the mentally ill.

In the state system so far it is a matter of "if you build it, we will fill it"

All the state MH beds have a waiting list at most times of the year. The state is the ward of last resort, where you send folks that don't fit in the regular MH system. We have tried to go to a smaller, more localized state MH system, and unfortunately, it really doesn't work as designed. Because of wait lists, there is tremendous pressure to discharge a patient as soon as possible.

The private system is based on bed turnover. They have something called DRG limits which cap how much insurance pays for treatment. If it takes too long, they end up losing money on the care they offer. This is all part of the fed's medicaid/medicare financial savings system, which is likely to be worse with the new health care act.

In essence, the hospitals medicate until the person is not a hazard to themself or others then tell them to follow up with an outpatient clinic to fine tune the treatment. This works well if you have a cooperative patient and an involved family. If they are not cooperative or their social system is not great, then it usually falls apart.

Talk to some of them sometime. The medications are usually expensive, the side effects are pretty significant, and you usually add on a bunch of medications to control side effects, with their own side effects. Add on to this the fact that we have no way of making sure that the person takes his medication in the first place and its a mess. Heck, in the institutions we have big issues getting folks to take their medicines.

Now the old institutions were not particularly pleasant places. How could they be when you are putting large numbers of generally unhappy (and usually not in their right minded) folks in a single place? However, economies of scale being what they are, it was a cheaper alternative and the folks were forced to stay there. They got rid of this system in the late 90's (after decades of trying to mainstream treatment, with varying levels of success) when the feds offered to pay more money for small maximum 16 bed hospitals, and now they cut most of that funding.

Its now cheaper to put someone in jail than in a MH program, and there are a lot more places in jail than in the MH programs as well. The mentally ill, while not necessarily dangerous, do tend to do things like "self medicate" with various illicit drugs, violate other people's rights, do things under the influence of illicit substances, and so on, and thus end up on Law Enforcement's radar. If you get on LE's radar enough, you usually end up in jail/prison.

And people wonder why the jails are full of the mentally ill? There is no place for them to go. Jail or the streets. And on the streets they get on LE's radar, and its a vicious cycle.

Oh, and MN is one of the "Mecca's" for MI treatment. We spend a lot more money than most states. If we have problems here, imagine what it is like in the South or in one of the chronically broke states like CA or IL.

So, if we want to do something to insure that the mentally ill are helped, and kept away from firearms, its going to require money. Probably lots of money. And it will likely increase the stigma of mental illness, which will cause its own set of issues.

Somehow, I don't see a solution that is as easy for our politicians as banning a few guns and saying we did something, its now not our fault. That is our real enemy here.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Holland&Holland on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:46 pm

crbutler wrote:The basic issues are money and bed space as far as dealing with the mentally ill.

In the state system so far it is a matter of "if you build it, we will fill it"

All the state MH beds have a waiting list at most times of the year. The state is the ward of last resort, where you send folks that don't fit in the regular MH system. We have tried to go to a smaller, more localized state MH system, and unfortunately, it really doesn't work as designed. Because of wait lists, there is tremendous pressure to discharge a patient as soon as possible.

The private system is based on bed turnover. They have something called DRG limits which cap how much insurance pays for treatment. If it takes too long, they end up losing money on the care they offer. This is all part of the fed's medicaid/medicare financial savings system, which is likely to be worse with the new health care act.

In essence, the hospitals medicate until the person is not a hazard to themself or others then tell them to follow up with an outpatient clinic to fine tune the treatment. This works well if you have a cooperative patient and an involved family. If they are not cooperative or their social system is not great, then it usually falls apart.

Talk to some of them sometime. The medications are usually expensive, the side effects are pretty significant, and you usually add on a bunch of medications to control side effects, with their own side effects. Add on to this the fact that we have no way of making sure that the person takes his medication in the first place and its a mess. Heck, in the institutions we have big issues getting folks to take their medicines.

Now the old institutions were not particularly pleasant places. How could they be when you are putting large numbers of generally unhappy (and usually not in their right minded) folks in a single place? However, economies of scale being what they are, it was a cheaper alternative and the folks were forced to stay there. They got rid of this system in the late 90's (after decades of trying to mainstream treatment, with varying levels of success) when the feds offered to pay more money for small maximum 16 bed hospitals, and now they cut most of that funding.

Its now cheaper to put someone in jail than in a MH program, and there are a lot more places in jail than in the MH programs as well. The mentally ill, while not necessarily dangerous, do tend to do things like "self medicate" with various illicit drugs, violate other people's rights, do things under the influence of illicit substances, and so on, and thus end up on Law Enforcement's radar. If you get on LE's radar enough, you usually end up in jail/prison.

And people wonder why the jails are full of the mentally ill? There is no place for them to go. Jail or the streets. And on the streets they get on LE's radar, and its a vicious cycle.

Oh, and MN is one of the "Mecca's" for MI treatment. We spend a lot more money than most states. If we have problems here, imagine what it is like in the South or in one of the chronically broke states like CA or IL.

So, if we want to do something to insure that the mentally ill are helped, and kept away from firearms, its going to require money. Probably lots of money. And it will likely increase the stigma of mental illness, which will cause its own set of issues.

Somehow, I don't see a solution that is as easy for our politicians as banning a few guns and saying we did something, its now not our fault. That is our real enemy here.


Good points all. In it's simplest form, Mental health beds do not pay a profit margin. Until they do, you will not see them improve.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby Heffay on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:32 pm

Mental health care is a great use of tax dollars. We should dedicate a lot more of them to it. And the NRA should be pushing for it.

Small government isn't always possible in all areas.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby LePetomane on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:58 pm

As if we are not taxed beyond excess already. The wallets of taxpayers are not a bottomless pit as democrat politicians and their constituents (especially in this state) believe. Mental illness, especially depression is way overstated. The DSM is constantly updated with new mental illnesses. Bereavement Disorder, Oppositional Defiance Disorder, Pervasive Development Disorder, the list goes on. Behaviors classified as illnesses. And how many middle aged women are on anti depressants these days for fibromyalgia and other things.
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Re: School Shooting Prevention(incl discussion of mental health)

Postby GunClasses.Net on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:48 pm

For reference...

The National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has written a letter to Pres Obama http://www.nami.org/policy/letters/presidentobama_newtownletter.pdf

And the National Crime Prevention Center has published this http://www.ncpc.org/resources/files/pdf/school-safety/stopping_school_violence.pdf

The NRA's press conf is here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/full-text-nra-remarks-gun-control-debate-newtown-article-1.1225043. I think someone posted the NRA's elsewhere, but I don't see it just offhand right now.
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