Open Streets event NO LONGER OPEN CARRY:)

[gunsmith]

WE DON'T NEED TO SPECULATE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE ANTI'S WILL ACT CRIMINALLY:
It's in the History of the MCPPA 2003.
This is from MPR: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collec ... e/2005/05/

This describes a fake email sent to appear to be from Joel Rosenberg, one of the core movers & shakers behind passing the 2003 law. The phoney email makes threats against legislators...I believe it was DELIVERED ON THE MORNING OF A VOTE ON THE BILL. That's not 'soaping windows' that's Nazi Brown Shirt stuff.

The House is scheduled to debate the handgun permit law today, and this unsettling note comes from the Pioneer Press:
Members of the Minnesota House on Tuesday received a threatening e-mail that purported to be from a supporter of an effort to allow Minnesotans easier access to gun permits. But the supporter and Capitol Security said it was a hoax.

"You better vote for us or else," said the e-mail, which appeared to be from Joel Rosenberg, who has worked to change Minnesota's law governing who can get a permit to carry a loaded weapon in public. Minnesota House members are expected to debate the gun bill possibly as early as today.

"If you don't vote for what we want, we will use the Information we have from a former Police Database to blackmail any opponents in our way. This MEANS YOU in the HOUSE," the e-mail said. "This means that people will be sent to your homes, like people were sent to Wes Skoglund's home, to intimidate, and harass, and look in his window," the e-mail said. Skoglund is a state senator from Minneapolis.

"It's fraudulent," said David Gross, an attorney representing Rosenberg. "We have contacted law enforcement and are hoping they can help us get to the bottom of this."

Minnesota Capitol Security and the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension worked Tuesday to figure out who sent the e-mail. In addition, the FBI is investigating.


Something tells me whoever sent the message will realize what a dumb move it was when the FBI shows up.

Soooooooooooooo Pick your fights carefully. I can't see how there's ANYTHING to gain by making yourself a target...Save that energy for emailing legislators and showing up at the capitol with an intelligent sign. The ONLY time I OC is when biking in the inner city and If I was there I'd conceal (both) guns just to be part of the background. You can be sure there will be some Occupy Wall Street Aholes there.

[connsolo]

If the goal was to raise awareness they succeeded.

[Stylin750]

Should we really bring up commifornia? Their now planning to ban lead ammunition, and from from what ive heard anything harder then lead was already banned. Its also the state that boasts to be the first to be gun free...a bunch of lunatics...

But now as I go on. I wanna know why are we scared of the antis? Yes the make aweful threats and act like utter lunatics.
But, from my expierence thats all they do. Their like a kindergarten bully or a big dog with no teeth. All bark but no bite.
A side from the anti lunatic wife who sent ricin letters to oisuckbama and that senator, in her progun husbands name and tried to blame it on her husband. They havent acted on anything or done anything, but they sure do make threats and try to scare us.

Apparently it works though. You know they also threatened to kill david keene and his entire family. Did that stop him? Did anything happen? No. The idiot that told me I should be shot, I told him to bring it. Never heard from him since. Which leads me to believe all bark and no bite. They dont own weapons think their evil, So they have to be atleast a little bit pacifist. If thats true, they cant act on thier threats, just make them, cause thats all they have.

I like to pick fights with theses idiots. Its kinda fun to hear their nonsensical dribble, in which for some reason they actully believe. Last night i ran into an anti, who actually thought we shouldnt have a right to protect ourselves and our families. They dont just hate guns they also hate us as people, cause we want to own them.

Its not going to get better for us, its not gunna get easier for us. Somehow or someway we do need to make a stand and tell them enough is enough, otherwise their just gunna keep steamrolling us. Thats my 2 sense, take it or leave it.

[Rip Van Winkle]

I'm not an OC advocate, but I hate the way this whole thing went down. The time to debate weather or not OC at an event like this is a good idea is before you announce your intentions to the media.

All this episode has done is reenforce the notion that all the moonbats need to do is snivel and whine and we'll scurry back to the shadows.

[photogpat]

*Waves at Nick Coleman watching this thread*

Hey Nick?! Open Carry didn't win things at the Capitol this session...the people of MN did. They decided the didn't want their politics controlled by career activists hired by rich elitist New Yorkers.

(Nicks been referencing this thread on his blog)

So the good people of Minneapolis, St Paul and the surrounding Twin Cities wanted to get together with some like minded people on a nice summer afternoon. You know what would have happened?

Nothing except good people of Minneapolis, St Paul and the surrounding Twin Cities getting together and enjoying a nice summer afternoon.

One of the things they teach you in a carry class (or at least I was taught)...was to always back down from a fight while carrying. Seems like the organizers of this event remembered their training just fine.

/rant

[xd ED]

*Waves at Nick Coleman watching this thread*

Hey Nick?! Open Carry didn't win things at the Capitol this session...the people of MN did. They decided the didn't want their politics controlled by career activists hired by rich elitist New Yorkers.

(Nicks been referencing this thread on his blog)

So the good people of Minneapolis, St Paul and the surrounding Twin Cities wanted to get together with some like minded people on a nice summer afternoon. You know what would have happened?

Nothing except good people of Minneapolis, St Paul and the surrounding Twin Cities getting together and enjoying a nice summer afternoon.

One of the things they teach you in a carry class (or at least I was taught)...was to always back down from a fight while carrying. Seems like the organizers of this event remembered their training just fine.

/rant

Nice of you to let nick know that one person still reads his blather.

At least with nick and his associate nut jobs penned up for these events the rest of town will be pleasant, safer, and likely more civilized.

[photogpat]

I didn't read the blog (haven't been drunk enough for the poor journalism and bad English), just saw on Twitter where Nickie was linking to it.

[bstrawse]

I have no problem with open carry - so my following comments should be taken with that in mind.

This was a bad idea from the beginning. Poorly messaged in advance, the anti's saw it coming and exploited a sympathetic press to spin the story. When the expected blowback came, there was no plan to manage that blowback -- and now the plan has been withdrawn - and a victory in the public / press gets handed to Protect MN, Moms Demand Action, and the anti-gun mayors in Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

They didn't even have to earn it. It was handed to them.

We win when we're polite, when we have simple, key messages, and have a plan to deal with the press, the blowback, the political BS that happens, and so on - and show up in force as a gun owner community.

That's how we ran the table on the anti-gunners this year at the legislature.

We piss away that credibility when things like this are what we hang our hats on.

One of the leaders I greatly admire has a saying: "This isn't checkers, this is mutha-effing chess. Play chess."

We need to play chess - particularly right now when we have a DFL Governor and a DFL controlled legislature. And we need our credibility as a gun owner community to maintain and grow the influence that we have.

B

[darkwolf45]

Not gonna say this was a bad idea. This was a GREAT idea. I don't need to parade my handgun around, but an open event to meet other gun owners is always a good thing. Here at work I could literally get written up and fired just for discussing guns, let alone expressing my views openly about them. And the people at the range are always friendly and welcoming, but they also are usually focused on what they are doing (training with their firearms). A side event would have been nice.

All that being said, this was a preplanned event that was actually set up for another cause. All the attention should have been on that cause, not our political beliefs. If we want to piggy back another event like this to socialize, I would rather we not take away from the original intent of the event by charging it up politically.

The other thought- odds are that the antis would not have actually followed through on the personal threats, but I guarantee they would have literally been in the faces of gunowners with bullhorns and would have dOne anything they could to convince police to deal with us rather violently and in a humiliating fashion. Given the makeup of some of the regions where these events are taking place, ther was a reasonable chance some cops would have attacked a permit holder, tackled him and stood over him with their weapons drawn.

Generally speaking, it is not in the nature of an anti to physically attack people. However, they very much want the spectacle of someone else to attack us. They also will incite with beligerant behavior and always seek to escalate any conflict with us in whatever way they can just so they can have the satisfaction of goading us into doing something that they believe will help their cause. They will do so unswervingly until they get their way.

As permit holders, we are warned over and over to DE-escalate. Quite honestly, while I would like to see some of these little anti gun monsters get what is coming to them after all of the threats, harrassment and outright bullying, I find the other, more difficult path of self restraint to be more rewarding.

But just think about it. We are not just dealing with a difference in political beliefs, we are dealing with a differing life philosophy. Attack vs defend, unleash vs restraint, incite vs discuss, escalate vs diminish. And they would be thrilled at the opportunity to ruin the open street events for everyone just to get a shot at abusing us into a position where some poor frustrated individual does something he'll regret.

[xd ED]

Not gonna say this was a bad idea. This was a GREAT idea. I don't need to parade my handgun around, but an open event to meet other gun owners is always a good thing. Here at work I could literally get written up and fired just for discussing guns, let alone expressing my views openly about them. And the people at the range are always friendly and welcoming, but they also are usually focused on what they are doing (training with their firearms). A side event would have been nice.

All that being said, this was a preplanned event that was actually set up for another cause. All the attention should have been on that cause, not our political beliefs. If we want to piggy back another event like this to socialize, I would rather we not take away from the original intent of the event by charging it up politically.

The other thought- odds are that the antis would not have actually followed through on the personal threats, but I guarantee they would have literally been in the faces of gunowners with bullhorns and would have dOne anything they could to convince police to deal with us rather violently and in a humiliating fashion. Given the makeup of some of the regions where these events are taking place, ther was a reasonable chance some cops would have attacked a permit holder, tackled him and stood over him with their weapons drawn.

Generally speaking, it is not in the nature of an anti to physically attack people. However, they very much want the spectacle of someone else to attack us. They also will incite with beligerant behavior and always seek to escalate any conflict with us in whatever way they can just so they can have the satisfaction of goading us into doing something that they believe will help their cause. They will do so unswervingly until they get their way.

As permit holders, we are warned over and over to DE-escalate. Quite honestly, while I would like to see some of these little anti gun monsters get what is coming to them after all of the threats, harrassment and outright bullying, I find the other, more difficult path of self restraint to be more rewarding.

But just think about it. We are not just dealing with a difference in political beliefs, we are dealing with a differing life philosophy. Attack vs defend, unleash vs restraint, incite vs discuss, escalate vs diminish. And they would be thrilled at the opportunity to ruin the open street events for everyone just to get a shot at abusing us into a position where some poor frustrated individual does something he'll regret.

Setting aside the rest of your post, I am curious as to what area you were referencing where you feel this might happen:

Given the makeup of some of the regions where these events are taking place, ther(sic) was a reasonable chance some cops would have attacked a permit holder, tackled him and stood over him with their weapons drawn.

Personally, I find most LEOs to be respectful professionals, even if those who (directly and indirectly) employ them are not.

[darkwolf45]

I had thought I had read that some areas for open streets would be in north and south minneapolis, which both have less than a stellar reputation as far as crime goes.

And you are right, many LEOs are consumate professionals, and it always warms my heart when I run into one. But, I know there is a share of not so decent LEOs in minneapolis, and on top of that you have a potentially volatile situation in a neighborhood with a reputation for being ridden with crime. That would put even a good LEO on edge when you have a group suddenly scream "hes got a gun and hes gonna shoot me!!"

The situation with the organizer for the open carry meetup is a good example. She is walking her dog and suddenly 8 squad cars come roaring up on her and draw their guns on her. (cant find the article where she said that at the moment).

[JJ]

I have no problem with open carry - so my following comments should be taken with that in mind.

This was a bad idea from the beginning. Poorly messaged in advance, the anti's saw it coming and exploited a sympathetic press to spin the story. When the expected blowback came, there was no plan to manage that blowback -- and now the plan has been withdrawn - and a victory in the public / press gets handed to Protect MN, Moms Demand Action, and the anti-gun mayors in Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

They didn't even have to earn it. It was handed to them.

We win when we're polite, when we have simple, key messages, and have a plan to deal with the press, the blowback, the political BS that happens, and so on - and show up in force as a gun owner community.

That's how we ran the table on the anti-gunners this year at the legislature.

We piss away that credibility when things like this are what we hang our hats on.

One of the leaders I greatly admire has a saying: "This isn't checkers, this is mutha-effing chess. Play chess."

We need to play chess - particularly right now when we have a DFL Governor and a DFL controlled legislature. And we need our credibility as a gun owner community to maintain and grow the influence that we have.

B

I am one in the camp that we could/should be doing more to advance the visibility of our cause. But I have to agree with bstrawse 100% on this.

Plans need to be made well ahead of time. A unified front has to be presented, with simple, easy handle messages. The fractured nature of current advocates has the potential to do far more harm than good for our cause.

[20mm]

MPD is less likely to harass and draw down on a group of OC'ers. OC'ing in a group in MSP is not only a great idea, it's wise as well.

Who wants to get together for a OC meetup in Loring Park?

[DoxaPar]

Who wants to get together for a OC meetup in Loring Park?

Ugh.

You know.. you don't have to attend every fight you're invited to.

Edit: Try to think of it this way... if we had an OC social park get-together how would you feel if a gay pride group showed up with all their stuff?

Trying to "ninja" someone's event just isn't cool.

[XDM45]

I have no problem with open carry - so my following comments should be taken with that in mind.

This was a bad idea from the beginning. Poorly messaged in advance, the anti's saw it coming and exploited a sympathetic press to spin the story. When the expected blowback came, there was no plan to manage that blowback -- and now the plan has been withdrawn - and a victory in the public / press gets handed to Protect MN, Moms Demand Action, and the anti-gun mayors in Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

They didn't even have to earn it. It was handed to them.

We win when we're polite, when we have simple, key messages, and have a plan to deal with the press, the blowback, the political BS that happens, and so on - and show up in force as a gun owner community.

That's how we ran the table on the anti-gunners this year at the legislature.

We piss away that credibility when things like this are what we hang our hats on.

One of the leaders I greatly admire has a saying: "This isn't checkers, this is mutha-effing chess. Play chess."

We need to play chess - particularly right now when we have a DFL Governor and a DFL controlled legislature. And we need our credibility as a gun owner community to maintain and grow the influence that we have.

B

I am one in the camp that we could/should be doing more to advance the visibility of our cause. But I have to agree with bstrawse 100% on this.

Plans need to be made well ahead of time. A unified front has to be presented, with simple, easy handle messages. The fractured nature of current advocates has the potential to do far more harm than good for our cause.

I want to comment on every post in this thread because each one is so dang good and right on...but for the sake of brevity and the sanity of everyone (myself included), I won't. So I'll say the following:

1) +Infinity on bstrawe's comment above, JJ's as well, and forever agreed. I think the goal was sound, but the planning and implementation was not. Others have already made valid points regarding politicizing events, not having a contingency plan for dealing with the fallout, inserting ourselves into a potential hotbed of possible provocation and escalation when we're supposed to de-escalate, etc. It's all been said in this thread, so no need for me to repeat it.

As dor darkwolf45's comments, I agree with them as well, in fact, I don't really disagree with anything said on this entire thread so far, so what follows isn't a disagreement, more of a comment....

"I don't need to parade my handgun around, but an open event to meet other gun owners is always a good thing."

Meetups are a good idea when it's planned and implemented accordingly, which this one was not. (I'm never for parading around to promote OC. I OC because it's how I legally choose to carry, no agenda, no politics, no parading.)

Also, the best OC events are just daily living. We can meet for coffee or just run into each other at a store, say hi.. no need to a special event unless you want to either raise awareness (not always a good thing as seen here), or you just want to get a bunch of people together who share a common interest. the former is more precarious, the latter, not so much. I agree that the sheeple need gun education, but much like people who use computers, many prefer to stay in their ignorance and refuse to learn. They just want their computer to work, aka "so fix it for me and shut up. I don't need to understand it, I just want it to work." ...and these same people drive cars and probably don't understand much about them either; but it's not just cars, computers and guns, most people are like that about everything...they want to learn the minimum and no more. It's sad really. Most people are willfully ignorant and incompetent on even some basic things of modern life; and while none of us are experts on everything, my point is that many people choose to not even really learn and understand the basics.

"Here at work I could literally get written up and fired just for discussing guns, let alone expressing my views openly about them."

I'm actually going back to my former job at the government defense contractor where I was at for almost 4 years. They all know I have a PTC. My boss's boss was one of the first in MN to have a PTC, as is one of the guys in the Professional Services department also one of the first in MN as well. Some of my co-workers and I have gone out shooting together. Whenever they run a story on the 2003 act, both their pictures appear in the article. (I don't carry at work.) At my last job, the one I was at for about 6 months, they also knew I had a PTC and didn't have a problem with it. My ex-boss was also an ex-cop from South Dakota and we discussed firearms once in awhile. (Prior to those 2 jobs, I didn't have a PTC), so I've never had an issue, and I'm sorry you do at your work. Not all places are so fearful like that. Is it enough to change jobs over? No. I don't think so, but it's sad that you can't be open there about it. Just know not all places are like that.

"And the people at the range are always friendly and welcoming, but they also are usually focused on what they are doing (training with their firearms). A side event would have been nice."

Agreed on all of that.