Minnesota Orchestra

[Rip Van Winkle]

This area has pumped more tax $$$'s into the professional sports teams with no return than they have into the orchestra.

And we shouldn't be subsidizing either.

Aren't you the one who's always accusing everybody here as being a liberal?

From the tone of your posts it sounds to me like your just fine with subsidizing the orchestra. That's an awfully liberal stance if you ask me.

[Texastransplant]

I'm torn on this issue. These people are extremely talented and highly trained individuals. I hold a Doctorate in music and on my best day, I could never sit in with this orchestra. They deserve as much money as they can get for what they do. We are talking about a lifetime of training and practice and sacrifice.

On the other hand, no free market system has ever, in the history of "art" music, been able to support an organization of this nature. Most professional orchestras in this country were actually started under the New Deal. Every major composer in history had some form of major contributor, from Ockhegem through Palestrina, Bach, Handel, Mozart, even Beethoven. It wasn't until the early part of the 20th century that composers and orchestras were able to fund themselves free of a state patronage system. That all ended with the Great Depression.

Now we live in a world where "classical" music takes a whopping 3% of the market share, yet major schools of music are churning out violinist after cellist after composer. The sad truth is, if these organizations refuse to evolve both artistically and financially, we are in danger of losing some major talent.

On the other hand, society has reached a point where we have taken art music for granted. Hell, we take all music for granted. How many people today actually take the time to sit down and listen to music with no distractions. When was the last time you listened to an entire album all the way through? It used to be if you wanted music you had to actively engage in the process of making it. By 1920, an estimated 60% of urban homes had a piano. If you didn't play music, you had to get off your butt and go somewhere to hear performers. Now you can go to youtube and watch the London Symphony perform Prokofiev.

So there are a lot of issues in play here. Hope I helped to shed some light. YMMV.

[LePetomane]

This area has pumped more tax $$$'s into the professional sports teams with no return than they have into the orchestra.

And we shouldn't be subsidizing either.

Aren't you the one who's always accusing everybody here as being a liberal?

From the tone of your posts it sounds to me like your just fine with subsidizing the orchestra. That's an awfully liberal stance if you ask me.

I don't advocate a subsidy for any of them. However we live in a state with a governor and legislature that cannot say "no" to anyone but the hardest working citizens. So therefore if they are to subsidize the Vikings, Wild and Twins then they should subsidize other entertainment as well. Some like football, some like baseball and some like classical music.

[Countryfried Frank]

They deserve as much money as they can get for what they do.

We all do. Should we all also be compelled to purchase an entertainment product that we don't consume?

[crbutler]

I really doubt music is going away in MN.

World class musicians at the MN orchestra, maybe.

Personally with over 80% high frequency hearing loss, I can't tell average from exceptional performers anyhow.

I have been to multiple Twins, Vikings, and North Stars (won't see the xmas trees) and lumberpuppy games.

Went to a few orchestra and opera performances as a child. Didn't care for them.

Personally, it sounds like a labor fight and the performers think they can get more somewhere else. So be it. I doubt that the net economic gain for the state from the orchestra is anywhere near what the pro sports teams bring in. I also suspect that the metro would be lower in the national rankings as a place to go to if we didn't have the pro sports teams, but as long as there is an orchestra, I doubt the quality of players will play that big of role. You want to see classical music at the highest level, you head to NYC or the great cities of Europe, not MSP.

Put it this way, the vikes alone bring in 100's of thousands of folks from the 5 state region each year. I doubt that we have 1000 folks from outside of the state come to orchestra performances.

[bensdad]

Heck, I'll just say it. Art... when it's created and/or performed for its own sake... is not important. It's a frivolous indulgence, patronized by an elitist sect that deams itself the arbiter of socio-cultural value. I gotta get up in the morning and decide how I'm gonna pay for my son's ice time this season. How DARE you proclaim your "art" important enough to take MY money and fund it. My neighbor is upside-down on his mortgage, got his hours cut back, and likely will lose insurance benefits... has to uproot his family and try to figure out where to go from here. He still makes enough $ that he has to pay state income tax. How DARE you take his money and give it to a violinist who makes six figures. Yeah, that same violinist who knows which side her bread is buttered on and will certainly vote herself a raise in EVERY election.

Anybody who thinks it was EVER ok to pay for this crap with public dollars is off the reservation.

[LePetomane]

They deserve as much money as they can get for what they do.

We all do. Should we all also be compelled to purchase an entertainment product that we don't consume?

Do you mean a stadium for the underperforming Vikings as well?

[xd ED]

They deserve as much money as they can get for what they do.

We all do. Should we all also be compelled to purchase an entertainment product that we don't consume?

Do you mean a stadium for the underperforming Vikings as well?

How is their performance relevant?

[Rip Van Winkle]

However we live in a state with a governor and legislature that cannot say "no" to anyone but the hardest working citizens. So therefore if they are to subsidize the Vikings, Wild and Twins then they should subsidize other entertainment as well. Some like football, some like baseball and some like classical music.

This liberal attitude is an example of why this country is headed towards bankruptcy. Their special interest is getting a subsidy, therefore my special interest is entitled to a subsidy.

[LePetomane]

However we live in a state with a governor and legislature that cannot say "no" to anyone but the hardest working citizens. So therefore if they are to subsidize the Vikings, Wild and Twins then they should subsidize other entertainment as well. Some like football, some like baseball and some like classical music.

This liberal attitude is an example of why this country is headed towards bankruptcy. Their special interest is getting a subsidy, therefore my special interest is entitled to a subsidy.

I see where you are coming from but in the state of Minnesota the horse is long out of the barn. We have a governor who is afraid of his own shadow and freely hands out our $$$ and tax credits to 3M, Mall of America, Mayo Clinic, Minnesota Vikings. If anyone has any doubts about the meaning of Crony Capitalist, they need to look no farther than him.

[xd ED]

However we live in a state with a governor and legislature that cannot say "no" to anyone but the hardest working citizens. So therefore if they are to subsidize the Vikings, Wild and Twins then they should subsidize other entertainment as well. Some like football, some like baseball and some like classical music.

This liberal attitude is an example of why this country is headed towards bankruptcy. Their special interest is getting a subsidy, therefore my special interest is entitled to a subsidy.

More than a few 'conservatives' get sucked into that BS as well;
The politicians know and understand the manipulation of temptation all to well.
A classic example s the MN legacy Amendment, which allowed the legislature, after pissing away most of any and all previously dedicated funds, to create a tax to support almost anything anyone of influence wanted supported.
With the promise of all sorts of outdoor recreational improvements and additions, MN outdoorssmen/outdoors writers, etc jumped on board for supporting the Legacy Amendment.

It created funding for:
Arts & Cultural Heritage Fund
Clean Water Fund
Environment & Natural Resources Trust Fund
Outdoor Heritage Fund
Parks & Trails Fund

Here's part of what you're now paying for(BEYOND having already paid preexisting taxes):

Arts & Cultural Heritage Fund

The Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund receives 19.75 percent of the sales tax revenue resulting from the Legacy amendment to support arts, arts education and arts access, and to preserve Minnesota's history and cultural heritage. Based on current sales tax revenue, Minnesotans will invest more than $1.2 billion in arts and cultural heritage fund projects and programs over the 25 year life of the tax.

A portion of the dollars appropriated from the Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund are being made available through grant programs. To learn more about funding opportunities available through these grant programs, please visit the websites below:
Children's Museum Grants (Minnesota Humanities Center)
Civic Education Grants Program (Minnesota Humanities Center)
Minnesota Department of Administration Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund Grants
Minnesota Filmmaker Grant Program
Minnesota Historical and Cultural Grants Program (Minnesota Historical Society)
Minnesota State Arts Board Grants (Minnesota State Arts Board)

I haven't studied the other funds to determine if this happens to be the most egregious abuse, it is merely the most on-topic to the discussion.

[xd ED]

However we live in a state with a governor and legislature that cannot say "no" to anyone but the hardest working citizens. So therefore if they are to subsidize the Vikings, Wild and Twins then they should subsidize other entertainment as well. Some like football, some like baseball and some like classical music.

This liberal attitude is an example of why this country is headed towards bankruptcy. Their special interest is getting a subsidy, therefore my special interest is entitled to a subsidy.

I see where you are coming from but in the state of Minnesota the horse is long out of the barn. We have a governor who is afraid of his own shadow and freely hands out our $$$ and tax credits to 3M, Mall of America, Mayo Clinic, Minnesota Vikings. If anyone has any doubts about the meaning of Crony Capitalist, they need to look no farther than him.

So, if you're on the wrong road...Just drive faster?

[Texastransplant]

Heck, I'll just say it. Art... when it's created and/or performed for its own sake... is not important. It's a frivolous indulgence, patronized by an elitist sect that deams itself the arbiter of socio-cultural value. I gotta get up in the morning and decide how I'm gonna pay for my son's ice time this season. How DARE you proclaim your "art" important enough to take MY money and fund it. My neighbor is upside-down on his mortgage, got his hours cut back, and likely will lose insurance benefits... has to uproot his family and try to figure out where to go from here. He still makes enough $ that he has to pay state income tax. How DARE you take his money and give it to a violinist who makes six figures. Yeah, that same violinist who knows which side her bread is buttered on and will certainly vote herself a raise in EVERY election.

Anybody who thinks it was EVER ok to pay for this crap with public dollars is off the reservation.

I never said it was ok. I just said what it is. Now, as to your belief that art is a frivolous, elitist institution: All art belongs to the people at some level or another. I am sorry you don't see the aesthetic value of art and music. There are only two things a civilization leaves behind for future genrations to discover: art and trash.

[Texastransplant]

They deserve as much money as they can get for what they do.

We all do. Should we all also be compelled to purchase an entertainment product that we don't consume?

Absolutely not.

[Texastransplant]

Bensdad, how much tax money was spent for the arena for your sons ice time? If any? Should I then be compelled as a taxpayer to fund what I feel is a frivolous, violent game?