A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

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A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby gunsmith on Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:21 pm

Woah....This sounds interesting...There's more at the link....as Drudge says: "Developing" :)

http://southsidepride.com/2013/11/artic ... ility.html

A novel approach to increased police
accountability

BY ERIC SCHILTZ, PROJECT MANAGER,
COMMITTEE FOR PROFESSIONAL POLICING

High profile cases of police misconduct have crowded the news over the past few years. This is not surprising; the City of Minneapolis has paid out roughly $20 million over the last seven years for police brutality and misconduct claims.

These payouts come directly from the city’s general fund, from taxes that all of us contribute. We all understand that it is necessary to pay our fair share of taxes to ensure a safe and vibrant city, but it is disrespectful to ask the taxpayers to fund police misconduct, especially when the city refuses to discipline those officers who cause these payouts. It is precisely this lack of discipline that encourages the misconduct and waste of taxpayer money.

Community members have brought forward an idea that would correct this problem. There is a proposal for a charter amendment to be placed on the 2014 ballot that would require Minneapolis police officers to carry their own professional liability insurance. The city could pay for the base rate of the insurance, but officers would be responsible for any additional premium due to claims or complaint history. This would make police officers directly accountable for their conduct and ease the burden on taxpayers. It would also place police officers in the same category as doctors, nurses, lawyers and others who typically carry professional liability insurance.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby gunsmith on Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:23 pm

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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby LePetomane on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:13 pm

Gunsmith,

As always, thanks for the links. Unlike professional liability insurance, the umbrella policies are pretty cheap. I don't know if it would cover a cop if he beat up a criminal. I don't envy these Minneapolis cops or any cops in a liberal urban paradise. The liberals want to be safe yet they tie the cops hands. Can't figure it out.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby TooFewGuns on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:31 pm

Great idea, I'm all for it. I wonder if the policy will replace the lap dogs that cops are shooting these days.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby smurfman on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:36 pm

I would like to know how many of those claims were settled because it was cheaper to settle than take it to trial and win? That is a not uncommon happening in these types of claim.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby LePetomane on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:39 pm

Speaking of dogs, I'd like to see them expand the use of the K9's. Can't sue a dog.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby Lights on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:13 pm

LePetomane wrote:Speaking of dogs, I'd like to see them expand the use of the K9's. Can't sue a dog.

No but you can it's handler for not having control of it.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby bensdad on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:20 pm

Union lawyers would tie that law up in the courts for decades. No way they let that fly without a fight.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby Sietch on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:02 pm

This idea is asinine. First, cops aren't like surgeons taking individual jobs, they're part of a corporate workforce. It would be inappropriate. There are simpler ways to stop this kind of BS. Second, in nearly all these civil rights suits the individual cops are immune as a matter of course and the city is inserted as the defendant anyway. The defendant, i.e. the city, is still the one paying damages, after which the city would have to go after individual officers to recoup the money it just paid out to the original plaintiffs. Good luck with that. So, it would be insurance for nothing.

smurfman wrote:I would like to know how many of those claims were settled because it was cheaper to settle than take it to trial and win?
Or lose. Remember the zombie pub crawl case? The city shelled out $165,000 because that number is smaller than the ~$400,000 it would get soaked for at trial.
Lights wrote:
LePetomane wrote:Speaking of dogs, I'd like to see them expand the use of the K9's. Can't sue a dog.

No but you can it's handler for not having control of it.
Dogs are equipment. Sue the operator.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby Countryfried Frank on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:09 am

It is an interesting idea that, on the surface, promotes individual responsibility but I doubt that that will be the end result. It's not necessarily a bad idea to carry PLI but they loose the argument for me when comparing police officers to doctors and lawyers. I certainly won't take the position that there is no problem but putting a similar burden on a police officer with a median income of 46k as an MD making 225k (according to payscale.com) seems more than a little ridiculous. I understand the proposal has the city (employer) paying for the base insurance but I'd be surprised if it isn't considered a benefit and part of payroll. Furthermore, to state that officers will only be responsible to increases due to claims or complaints opens the door for misuse. The obvious question is, who determines the reason for the increase and what recourse do the insured have against frivolous complaints? But less apparent is, do certain risk groups see higher or lower increases for similar complaints and claims? This could easily be biased against an already higher risk group. Lastly, the complainants and their lawyers will go after the money. An officer with PLI will be a bigger target since the officer now represents not only his or her money but also the insurance companies money. I'm afraid that this won't make the city less of a target though.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby farmerj on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:15 am

then why do motor carriers have to carry such exorbitant insurance compared to a cop? We don't earn anymore than them and we aren't having the direct impact they do. And for those that don't know, it's to the tune of $10,000 annually PER truck.

I see it as making a lot of sense. A cops individual decisions should not be hid behind color of law. Especially when it gets to this level. I'd say it's high time the city council also cleaned house on management. From the top down. It's shown that it's been going on for far too long if it's cost them this much money. Allowed to continue, management is just as guilty to stop it from recurring as the individuals that step out of line. Ignoring the problem or allowing it to continue isn't right.

So the question I have....

How do the payouts in Minneapolis compare to surrounding cities? If it's that far out of line, there are a lot of hard questions that need to be answered. Not just "should a cop have PLI?".
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby smurfman on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:53 am

Sietch wrote:
smurfman wrote:I would like to know how many of those claims were settled because it was cheaper to settle than take it to trial and win?
Or lose. Remember the zombie pub crawl case? The city shelled out $165,000 because that number is smaller than the ~$400,000 it would get soaked for at trial.
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Is this the group that walked along Nicollet Mall? If so, that was not part of the Zombie Pub Crawl. As I recall, two of the claims against the City were dismissed and the other was allowed to continue as the court claimed the reason for detention was not described narrowly enough.Tthis allowed the case to go to trial if so desired. It was no proof that the complainants would win.

There is no guarantee that the City would win these cases but then if they never fight, how will they ever lessen even frivolous claims? There are many more of these than the big claims and they add up quickly. It may cost more to take these cases to trial than to pay it off but isn't this really just a form of blackmail? Give in once and it makes it pretty difficult to get out from under the thumb. After all, you set the precedent for being guilty.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby Sietch on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:46 pm

smurfman wrote:the court claimed the reason for detention was not described narrowly enough.Tthis allowed the case to go to trial if so desired. It was no proof that the complainants would win.
The city settled because they believed they were likely to lose and doing so was cheaper than losing.
Strib wrote:Minneapolis City Attorney Susan L. Segal said it was in the best interests of the city to settle. "We believe the police acted reasonably, but you never know what a jury is going to do with a case,"
If a jury had concluded that the seven plaintiffs' constitutional rights had been violated and awarded $50,000 to each, plus defense attorney's fees, "it could have been quite substantial," Segal said.
Civil defendants do this kind of felicific calculus every day. They fight the cases they think they can win and minimize their losses on the rest. Sometimes they settle cases they think they can win, when the payout is small and way less than what it would cost to litigate. This isn't one of those.

smurfman wrote:There is no guarantee that the City would win these cases but then if they never fight, how will they ever lessen even frivolous claims?
Let's think about this. Those kids didn't sue because they thought the city might settle a lawsuit with them. They sued because they were wronged by the police. The source of these lawsuits is civil rights violations. Merely fighting lawsuits isn't a strategy for reducing the number of people suing for police misconduct.
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby smurfman on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:09 pm

Sietch wrote:]The city settled because they believed they were likely to lose and doing so was cheaper than losing.
Strib wrote:Minneapolis City Attorney Susan L. Segal said it was in the best interests of the city to settle. "We believe the police acted reasonably, but you never know what a jury is going to do with a case,"
If a jury had concluded that the seven plaintiffs' constitutional rights had been violated and awarded $50,000 to each, plus defense attorney's fees, "it could have been quite substantial," Segal said.
Civil defendants do this kind of felicific calculus every day. They fight the cases they think they can win and minimize their losses on the rest. Sometimes they settle cases they think they can win, when the payout is small and way less than what it would cost to litigate. This isn't one of those.


I don't see where the City thought they would lose, I see where they did not trust a jury decision. Two different things. As the original complaint contained three issues, two of which were thrown out by higher courts (and all three by a lower court), there is no clear indication of which way things would go. As always, jury make up would play a big part in the outcome and that is a guess until they are chosen. And even then is is no sure matter.

As for settling on cases they could win but are small, that is my point precisely. Not fighting these cases may make sense case by case but they only lead to a precedent for more such claims in the future. Death by a thousand cuts if you will. If the city would have fought earlier ones and won, then what are the odds an attorney would take a similar case in the future? When the precedents are against you it is a hard and expensive hill to climb to change them. I know of one individual who has made and "won" three such claims against police departments which is a basis for my disgust at this practice. He may have won more but he "moved" from the area and has not been able to return. I am also aware of several other such instances involving officers. Not only does it encourage small frivolous suits (in my opinion) but also tarnishes the officer(s) involved as it implies wrong doing on their part.

I do agree that dealing to get a lesser penalty on a case in which the City is clearly or at least very likely in the wrong is a good practice but not on those cases where they are clearly in the right. Winning a principle can be expensive on the face of it but it can save a lot of money in the long run.


[quote=Sietch] Those kids didn't sue because they thought the city might settle a lawsuit with them. They sued because they were wronged by the police. The source of these lawsuits is civil rights violations. Merely fighting lawsuits isn't a strategy for reducing the number of people suing for police misconduct.[/quote]

They sued because they thought they were wronged. As I stated above, two of the claims were dismissed so evidently two of their "thoughts" were wrong. Nothing stating the strength or weakness of either side appears to have been made, just that one claim appeared to have enough validity to be heard in court unlike the others. That the claim could be heard in court does not mean they will win. Too, there is no evidence that they would even have received that amount of money if they won, just that they were suing for that amount or more. It is possible the city could have lost and paid less than what they settled on, isn't it?
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Re: A novel approach to increased police accountability In Mpls.

Postby Countryfried Frank on Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:43 am

farmerj,
I agree that the question is much bigger than, "should a cop have PLI?" My point was that I don't believe that the solution detailed in the article quoted by the OP will have the desired effect. If every officer is required to carry PLI there will just be more entities to sue. The points made regarding some of the motivation to sue the police are good ones. Addressing those will likely have a greater impact in my opinion. I am not a cop but I have seen two drunk ******** complain that the cops used excessive force in restraining drunk ******* #3 who had just torn apart a bar because the cops yelled at ******* #3 when he tried to pull away from them. Some would even argue that the fact that ******* #3 didn't eat pavement is evidence that the cops showed restraint.

I also believe that some cops go to far at times. There are several protections for cops, both statutory and included in CBA's, that can make it difficult to guide someone to appropriate training or a different career when they are having a difficult time. I believe that a better step towards personal accountability would be to address those roadblocks and foster a more cooperative relationship between labor and management. A more professional police force benefits all officers. More professional police are needed to have a more professional force. The insurance scheme detailed in the OP is nothing more than a means to can cops that have a lot of claims. Instead of focusing solely on the number of claims, which could potentially be higher for someone solely because of geographical location, wouldn't it make more sense to put in place a means to effectively counsel those that are not performing?
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