Another reason to not live in California.

[goaliemn]

It's a good thing that the alternative lifestyle people don't gravitate to my line of business and bring their freak show here. And it is a freak show.

I'm sure there are some "freaks" in your line of work. you just don't know it. You'd never peg me as being gay if you met me. There is a minority that the conservative press likes to keep bringing up to make sure people keep thinking everyone in that group is a "freak"

I also find your signature almost ironic..

"There is no one more narrow minded than a broad minded liberal" John Lynch

I'd venture to say from alot of the comments in this thread and the gay marriage threads that quite afew of the conservatives here are pretty narrow minded and unwilling to accept any new ideas and/or change their views.

[bensdad]

You don't get it. i guess some folks just never will.

[goaliemn]

You don't get it. i guess some folks just never will.

I was thinking the same thing..

[bensdad]

You don't get it. i guess some folks just never will.

I was thinking the same thing..

DIfference is I'm right. The GLBT agenda is, simply put, "All of society - bend to our will. You must love us and hug us and cherish our differentness and let us have a float in the parade and go in any locker room we want and corrupt language and be virtually unfireable."

That's ok. Have it your way. Seems other minority communities have had special laws passed to help them get on an even footing. How's that workin' out again?

[goaliemn]

DIfference is I'm right. The GLBT agenda is, simply put, "All of society - bend to our will. You must love us and hug us and cherish our differentness and let us have a float in the parade and go in any locker room we want and corrupt language and be virtually unfireable."

I don't see it that way.. I see it as wanting equal access. Someone has a diagnosed disorder, they should be allowed equal access to the locker room of the gender they are transitioning to. Virtually unfireable? that's a new one.. I haven't heard cases of businesses being forced to hire/not fire GLBT employees. In most states, its not covered by any anti-discrimination policies, if that's what you're referring to. Its not at the federal level. There's a movement to get it added, but it has very little traction.

That's ok. Have it your way. Seems other minority communities have had special laws passed to help them get on an even footing. How's that workin' out again?

you seem to miss a point I've made on afew threads.. I don't think any special laws should/need to be passed, just apply all the rules equally. If someone gets special accomodation because they have PTSD, or special accomodation because they have another diagnosed disorder, then you should be giving anyone diagnosed with a disorder special acomodation. Its either all or none. You can't pick and choose which disorders you're going to accomodate for..

You and I will never agree on this, that's obvious. I'm also a minority, in my social views, on this forum and know that I won't be changing most peoples minds/hearts, much like you won't be doing it to me. We both feel we're right, based on our views and in our own minds we are

[LePetomane]

I'm sure there are some "freaks" in your line of work. you just don't know it. You'd never peg me as being gay if you met me. There is a minority that the conservative press likes to keep bringing up to make sure people keep thinking everyone in that group is a "freak"

There probably are but as long as they do their work and don't force their agenda then they go unnoticed which is fine with me. So I don't consider them to be freaks. It's the ones with the acquired behaviors (effeminate speech, etc..) that are meant to draw attention that irritate me and give ones like you a bad name.

Regarding the signature line, I find it to be true. Those who preach their "upper midwestern values" and "tolerance" are the most intolerant of all. They only tolerate what they are in agreement with. And they are the most miserable people I have ever met. They put anything that they don't agree with into the categories of sexist, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, bigoted or a vast right wing conspiracy.

[Erud]

Ok, looks like we all know where everyone stands on this part of it, so I have another question, particularly for goaliemn. At what age do you think children should be allowed to make decisions like this?

[goaliemn]

Ok, looks like we all know where everyone stands on this part of it, so I have another question, particularly for goaliemn. At what age do you think children should be allowed to make decisions like this?

I don't know if I could say a specific age.. It depends on the maturity of the child. Plus some may not bring it up until they are older due to familial issues/beliefs that may make it difficult/impossible to announce this to the family.

I knew I was gay when I was in about the 3rd grade. I know some transgender people that say they felt like something was different with them as far as they can remember. Some didn't talk about it until they were older, due to social and family pressures, which can impact if/when a child is even willing to discuss it. I never came out to my family until many years after I moved out, due to fear of how they'd react. I didn't even tell any therapists until I was 18, because I was scared they would tell my parents.

[LePetomane]

I did find it interesting the article only touched on male-to-female transitions. They knew it would get the most response from the fathers. Would you guys feel as upset about someone with a vagina transitioning to male using the male locker rooms?

I would be. I would assume that most of the participants in this thread are male, but I wonder how females would respond. My guess is that there would be the same outrage.

As far as males transitioning to females using the female facilities I am not convinced that they would be safer in the female locker room than they would be in the male one. Teenage girls can be very cruel.

goaliemn brought up the possibility of these students using the teachers facilities. I think that is the best suggestion to date. Let the teachers be inconvenienced by accommodating the outliers. It won't be long until their union voices objections.

[bensdad]

Couple points, then I'll push away from the table.

1. If this actually happens - ambiguous gender individuals switching lockers/bathrooms/whatever - the qualities of the social lives of such individuals will deteriorate catastrophically. Enough girls (or boys) will refuse to be in vulnerable/exposed settings with them that I think it's more than likely that EVERYBODY will refuse. Then what have you accomplished? Your transgender kid gets a giant locker room to him/herself, and the rest of the student body gets a HUGE resentment. They're gonna enjoy living with that. You've taken a tough situation and, by trying to be merciful and helpfull, made it exponentially worse. Watch. if this happens in a few places, and the ostracisation [sic?] DOESN'T make the news, meet me back at this thread and tell me I was wrong.

2. I don't care what the DSM or goaliemn or or the AMA say. These kids are not disordered. You've used that word over and over again. Ambiguous gender births are pretty common. More parents than we realize have been called into a waiting room and gently told they get to choose.

3. You keep talking about making accomodations for other disorders (again, I don't agree wth that word here). What you fail to see is that those accomodations work both ways. No student has the right to interfere with my kid's education. If littel ADD Alice can't shut up in class, she needs to have an aid who pulls her out so my kid can learn. If EBD Johny is violent on the playground, he needs to go. FAPE says he gets to have the same OR EQUIVALENT recess/excercise opportunity as the other kids. LRE says that we'll try it with the group first, but if that's not gonna work, it AIN'T the other kids (and their parents) problem. He can play with his aid and/or the other EBD kids in a different place until he proves he can fit in. Again, the rights of the individual end where the rights of another begin.

[LePetomane]

bensdad,

I enjoyed your closing arguments. You bring up the DSM. Interestingly the most recent edition classifies a lot of behaviors, symptoms and emotions as disease states. Scary!!

[bensdad]

bensdad,

I enjoyed your closing arguments. You bring up the DSM. Interestingly the most recent edition classifies a lot of behaviors, symptoms and emotions as disease states. Scary!!

I haven't looked at a new one. hopefully I'll never have to. There was serious academic discussion of including video game addiction. Did that happen?
Sorry. Not trying to derail a thread.

[goaliemn]

2. I don't care what the DSM or goaliemn or or the AMA say. These kids are not disordered. You've used that word over and over again. Ambiguous gender births are pretty common. More parents than we realize have been called into a waiting room and gently told they get to choose.

Just going to touch on this one.. Ambiguous gender births are significantly different than someone who feels they are transgendered. Usually, they are born as one sex, later determining they were born into the body of the wrong one. I have heard of some kids whos gender was "chosen" by the parents becoming transgendered, but most are not because of that.

[bensdad]

Just going to touch on this one

Cuz the other two made you realize we're on the same side.

[goaliemn]

Just going to touch on this one

Cuz the other two made you realize we're on the same side.

I only touched on the one because I thought you were out of the thread

I do partially agree with you on the other 2 points, tho.. the 2nd point I felt was way off base, which is why I responded to it