Another reason to not live in California.

[bensdad]

Honestly, I just assumed post-natal gender selection was a major cause. My bad.

[Erud]

Ok, looks like we all know where everyone stands on this part of it, so I have another question, particularly for goaliemn. At what age do you think children should be allowed to make decisions like this?

I don't know if I could say a specific age.. It depends on the maturity of the child. Plus some may not bring it up until they are older due to familial issues/beliefs that may make it difficult/impossible to announce this to the family.

I knew I was gay when I was in about the 3rd grade. I know some transgender people that say they felt like something was different with them as far as they can remember. Some didn't talk about it until they were older, due to social and family pressures, which can impact if/when a child is even willing to discuss it. I never came out to my family until many years after I moved out, due to fear of how they'd react. I didn't even tell any therapists until I was 18, because I was scared they would tell my parents.

Would you support a mature 3rd-grader making the decision to become the other sex? I ask because I remember feeling very strongly about a great number of things when I was younger, particularly high-school age. I now disagree with almost all of my opinions from that age.

I don't know a ton of gay people, but I've known a few. I don't believe that there are as many out there as many people think. Some studies put it below 3% of total population, while many opinion polls show that people BELIEVE the number is more like 20%. The actual # is of course impossible to quantify, but these give us some idea. There may well be more gay people in my life than I know about that just don't announce it, but I don't really care either way. I don't talk to my hetero friends about their heterosexuality, so I don't know why I'd need to talk to any gay friends or acquaintances about their homosexuality.

2 situations that I am personally aware of come to mind for me when discussing this topic. First is a person who works at a company that I do contract work for. "Al" (not his real name) was born as man and lived until age 40 or so as a man, including wife, kids, etc. At around 40, he "came out" to his company, and announced that he would be getting a sex-change. He immediately (like the next day) began wearing makeup, shaving all visible parts of his body, wearing a bra, and speaking like a woman. A year (or so) later, he had whatever surgical procedures are involved to turn him into a woman. This was roughly 7 or 8 years ago, and he has lived as "Alice" ever since, including marrying a man. The marriage was short-lived, and Alice was divorced shortly thereafter. Alice is now dating a woman and talking around the office of marrying her.

2nd situation is a friend of my wife's. She has a young son (5 or 6) years old, that she is basically raising as a girl. Since before he could talk, she dressed him in girls' clothing, put makeup on him, given him girls' toy, and encouraged him to talk like a girl. He now acts just like a girl, including talking about how cute Justin Bieber is. I am confident that if anyone gave him the choice of being a girl he would jump at it. I don't really expect that he's going to change his mind about this, as it is all he has ever known. I have no idea what makes someone gay or not, but this boy will believe he is gay, whether he really is or not. I suspect that he will have some serious issues when he gets older.

I do not claim to understand either one of these situations, but seeing both of them first-hand, I can't help but think that people may not always be as certain of things like this as they think they are, and that making this decision before even reaching adulthood would be a very bad idea. It seems that the gay population puts an unusually high importance on their sexual preference as a defining factor in who they are. If I had to make a list of characteristics, etc that define who I am, it'd be a long way down the list before I got to "heterosexual". By contrast, it seems that many gays would put "gay' at or very near the top of the list. This is only based on my personal experiences with gay people that I have known, and may not accurately represent the population as a whole.

Any thoughts?

[goaliemn]

Would you support a mature 3rd-grader making the decision to become the other sex? I ask because I remember feeling very strongly about a great number of things when I was younger, particularly high-school age. I now disagree with almost all of my opinions from that age.

No. When I say mature I guess I should've added high school aged. If someone is in high school and has had feelings for awhile about it, they should be able to take action on them by that point.

I don't know a ton of gay people, but I've known a few. I don't believe that there are as many out there as many people think. Some studies put it below 3% of total population, while many opinion polls show that people BELIEVE the number is more like 20%. The actual # is of course impossible to quantify, but these give us some idea. There may well be more gay people in my life than I know about that just don't announce it, but I don't really care either way. I don't talk to my hetero friends about their heterosexuality, so I don't know why I'd need to talk to any gay friends or acquaintances about their homosexuality.

I've always felt its somewhere in the 5-10% range.

2 situations that I am personally aware of come to mind for me when discussing this topic. First is a person who works at a company that I do contract work for. "Al" (not his real name) was born as man and lived until age 40 or so as a man, including wife, kids, etc. At around 40, he "came out" to his company, and announced that he would be getting a sex-change. He immediately (like the next day) began wearing makeup, shaving all visible parts of his body, wearing a bra, and speaking like a woman. A year (or so) later, he had whatever surgical procedures are involved to turn him into a woman. This was roughly 7 or 8 years ago, and he has lived as "Alice" ever since, including marrying a man. The marriage was short-lived, and Alice was divorced shortly thereafter. Alice is now dating a woman and talking around the office of marrying her.

Its possible he had been living part time as "Alice" when not at work, so starting the next day full time doesn't mean he went from 100% male to 100% female overnight. It just means he went to full time living as a woman, which is required for a year before someone can get surgery, under most standards followed by Psychiatrists and doctors.

2nd situation is a friend of my wife's. She has a young son (5 or 6) years old, that she is basically raising as a girl. Since before he could talk, she dressed him in girls' clothing, put makeup on him, given him girls' toy, and encouraged him to talk like a girl. He now acts just like a girl, including talking about how cute Justin Bieber is. I am confident that if anyone gave him the choice of being a girl he would jump at it. I don't really expect that he's going to change his mind about this, as it is all he has ever known. I have no idea what makes someone gay or not, but this boy will believe he is gay, whether he really is or not. I suspect that he will have some serious issues when he gets older.

I'd consider that to be a form of abuse. Yes. I'm sure he'll have lots of gender issues when he gets older and years of therapy.

I do not claim to understand either one of these situations, but seeing both of them first-hand, I can't help but think that people may not always be as certain of things like this as they think they are, and that making this decision before even reaching adulthood would be a very bad idea.

People figure out they are heterosexual before adulthood. Look at proms/dances/etc. I think its something just inborn in everyone and people identify with it at different times in their lives. Some don't want to think they are one way or another, due to social/family/religious pressures, so some may announce what they are at various times.

It seems that the gay population puts an unusually high importance on their sexual preference as a defining factor in who they are. If I had to make a list of characteristics, etc that define who I am, it'd be a long way down the list before I got to "heterosexual". By contrast, it seems that many gays would put "gay' at or very near the top of the list. This is only based on my personal experiences with gay people that I have known, and may not accurately represent the population as a whole.

I don't know if the gay population puts it so high, or if alot of the press makes it a big deal. Quite afew of the press quotes I see posted here, as well as other places, tend to make it a big deal. Alot of guys I know don't make it a huge deal. Having said that, I had someone get upset at me saying I was throwing it in their face when I mentioned my husband, no less than acouple of minutes after he introduced his wife.. I asked him if I should be upset that he threw his heterosexuality in my face when he mentioned his wife and he left in a huff. Some seem overly sensative because it is a hot issue. Its an issue with deep emotional and religious (for some) roots for some people. Like has been shown on this thread, and other threads here, many have views on it that will, more than likely, never change, so when its mentioned, it gets a bit exagerated, in my opinion, because they are so sensative to it.

[LePetomane]

It seems that the gay population puts an unusually high importance on their sexual preference as a defining factor in who they are. If I had to make a list of characteristics, etc that define who I am, it'd be a long way down the list before I got to "heterosexual". By contrast, it seems that many gays would put "gay' at or very near the top of the list.
Any thoughts?

I have observed it as well. I'll preface this by saying I am not a very sociable neighbor. I keep to myself. A while back I was having a conversation with a then neighbor I had known for about two years. During the conversation he informed me that he was gay. He was upset that I hadn't figured it out and even more upset when I told him that I really didn't care what his sexual preference was. Sometimes you just can't win.

So my question is this: What was I supposed to be looking for? Why was I considered deficient by this guy because I didn't know that he was gay? And why is it awful that I don't care? I still don't know!

[ericinmn1970]

So my question is this: What was I supposed to be looking for? Why was I considered deficient by this guy because I didn't know that he was gay? And why is it awful that I don't care? I still don't know!

People are odd whether gay or straight. Perhaps this guy felt he had switched his gay aura into hi-power mode, so that it was obvious to anyone he came in contact with. Perhaps he just had an over inflated ego. I've known many men and women in my lifetime thus far, who feel they have to be the center and all encompassing focus of mine and everyone else's thoughts. Maybe you not reacting to the news of his sexual orientation in the way he thought you should react was taken as a slight. No matter what, that's his crap, not yours.

[Stylin750]

It seems that the gay population puts an unusually high importance on their sexual preference as a defining factor in who they are. If I had to make a list of characteristics, etc that define who I am, it'd be a long way down the list before I got to "heterosexual". By contrast, it seems that many gays would put "gay' at or very near the top of the list.
Any thoughts?

I have observed it as well. I'll preface this by saying I am not a very sociable neighbor. I keep to myself. A while back I was having a conversation with a then neighbor I had known for about two years. During the conversation he informed me that he was gay. He was upset that I hadn't figured it out and even more upset when I told him that I really didn't care what his sexual preference was. Sometimes you just can't win.

So my question is this: What was I supposed to be looking for? Why was I considered deficient by this guy because I didn't know that he was gay? And why is it awful that I don't care? I still don't know!

Here's my thoughts. Personally I couldn't give a crap, what your sexual preferences are, as long as its not flaunted in my face or my family's face. What you do in YOUR house is your business. Once its brought out in public its all our business and We all have the right to not have to see it. I'm pretty sure its not even 10 percent of the population that is "gay". Personally I think most "gay" people just want the attention, nothing more. Think about it. People who are comfortable with themselves, don't flaunt it, don't scream about it, don't demand attention, although the flagrant "gay" people demand it. So it seems to me, its more about attention and getting attention. Then actually being 'Gay".

As far as being "mature" enough to decide what sex you want to be. I don't believe any teenager is mature or competent enough to decide that, 18 is the very minimal age to decide that, and I don't think that's old enough. What teenager is mature enough to make these huge decisions? 18 year olds aren't even mature enough to make crucial life decisions anymore, to be honest. lets face it, the teenage years are meant to make you figure out who you are and where you fit in. This is quite a drastic decision and once its made is quite permanent. There's a reason why you cant get tattoos before 18 cause their permanent. So why as a society would we allow something this drastic to happen before a person "finds" themselves. Who has ever know this kind of personal information as a teenager? I don't care what sexual preference you claim you are, no one knows this as a teenager.

And as a father, I cant believe society would allow this to happen. I don't want someone with a dick near my daughters in the bathrooms or the locker room and vice versa. If anyone fails to remember high school, its rough and teenagers can be very cruel. This is just setting up a disaster. This my opinion as just as valid as the next guys and just as pointless.

[LePetomane]

ericmn1970 and stylin750,

Thanks for the comments. I feel the same way. Once someone starts stuffing the flamboyant effeminate behavior and mannerisms in my face then it does become my business. I get sick and tired of the politically correct in this area dictating that I "celebrate" that stuff. If you're not for them then you are against them. There is no neutral ground.

[Evad]

If you're not for them then you are against them. There is no neutral ground.

You just summarized the feelings of 90% of people on any emotional issue there ever has been.

[XDM45]

If you're not for them then you are against them. There is no neutral ground.

You just summarized the feelings of 90% of people on any emotional issue there ever has been.

The problem, if you will, is that most people are personally vested in and polarized to a certain point of view / opinion; which coupled with Expectation(s) of themselves (and others), makes for the perfect breeding ground of "Right vs. Wrong".

Sex, Guns, religion, Abortion, Politics, Sports, and many others... are only some of the hot button topics people get this way about. You could say that you like purple colored cheese and others wouldn't give it a second thought, but say something about one of the aforementioned topics and they get all bent out of shape because of their own vestments, beliefs, fear, etc. Personally, I can discuss any of those things from a neutral basis without vestment because I don't believe in "facts", universal "Right and Wrong", and I believe that everything is a matter of opinion....and one opinion does not negate another opinion regardless of if those two people and their opinions agree or not. Being Neutral is easy, but not simple. In order to do it, you must let go and become the Observer of both yourself and others, without vestment. (Letting Go in itself could be an entire thread or book(s) written about it.)

P.S. - Gay, Straight, Bi, Transgendered, etc..... who cares? None of it matters to me. Do as thou wilt, an if it harm none, right?

[bensdad]

Sex, Guns, religion, Abortion, Politics, Sports, and many others

The problem is, some of those topics DO have a RIGHT and WRONG answer. You know as well as well as I do that an armed society is a polite society... that as America has armed up, and as firearms restrictions have loosened, crime rates have gone down. The other side must literally make stuff up to bring fence-sitters to their camp.

GLBT community members have every right to the same opportunities/rights/protections as the hetero crowd. We all know that.

Evil folk (on both sides) have ulterior motives. Some of us underlings get sucked into their agenda and become unwilling pawns. This locker room item is a perfect example. The only people who think this is a good idea, are those who have an agenda... and those who, while well-intentioned, follow them too willingly.

[XDM45]

Sex, Guns, religion, Abortion, Politics, Sports, and many others

The problem is, some of those topics DO have a RIGHT and WRONG answer.

That depends on how you choose to live your life. I choose to live in this World and not be of it. To me, it's sort of like playing a Monopoly game where I'm aware that we're all sitting at the same table playing a game, (aka in the World but not of it), but there are others there who are totally vested in the game itself, unaware they are only playing a game. (aka in the World). Things matter to them that don't really matter to me.

It's all a perspective, an opinion, a different way of looking at things and living. It really gets into a whole philosophical discussion regarding personal beliefs. I'm trying to keep it down to a simple post vs. a book here, so hopefully everyone gets the idea.

[gunsmith]

I started this thread as a cheap shot against California including inflammatory graphic...and youz guys turn it into an intelligent discussion....????

[Stylin750]

If you're not for them then you are against them. There is no neutral ground.

You just summarized the feelings of 90% of people on any emotional issue there ever has been.

The problem, if you will, is that most people are personally vested in and polarized to a certain point of view / opinion; which coupled with Expectation(s) of themselves (and others), makes for the perfect breeding ground of "Right vs. Wrong".

Sex, Guns, religion, Abortion, Politics, Sports, and many others... are only some of the hot button topics people get this way about. You could say that you like purple colored cheese and others wouldn't give it a second thought, but say something about one of the aforementioned topics and they get all bent out of shape because of their own vestments, beliefs, fear, etc. Personally, I can discuss any of those things from a neutral basis without vestment because I don't believe in "facts", universal "Right and Wrong", and I believe that everything is a matter of opinion....and one opinion does not negate another opinion regardless of if those two people and their opinions agree or not. Being Neutral is easy, but not simple. In order to do it, you must let go and become the Observer of both yourself and others, without vestment. (Letting Go in itself could be an entire thread or book(s) written about it.)

P.S. - Gay, Straight, Bi, Transgendered, etc..... who cares? None of it matters to me. Do as thou wilt, an if it harm none, right?

XDM45. I happen to agree with you on most things and respect your opinion. But to be honest I have to disagree with you on this one.

There are definite right and wrong answers to a lot of these. yes granted people do think with emotion and add emotion to their cause. The liberals understand that. That's why they spearhead these topics and definitely use them to their advantage and push their agenda. They know people have gotten so they cant think with their brain and think solely on emotion. Was it by their design I don't know. But take an honest look at these topics through history, nature and biology and their does come honest answers.

Yes sports teams is completely a personal opinion with no right or wrong answer. Because for one thing in the entire scheme of things it means absolutely nothing, but lets face it, its fun and makes for a fun relief of reality.

Lets look at guns for instance. The anti's want you to believe its all for personal safety and keeping everyone safe for the imaginary boogieman. When anyone with any knowledge and rational thought knows gun control only attacks the legal law abiding citizen, doesn't stop crime and murder. It simply doesn't work. It only attacks those who are not going to go and rationally attack innocent people. yet the anti-gunners go and paint us all as evil, for one purpose their agenda. We can take a look in the not so distant history and see where that agenda leads and its not pretty. Its full of tyrants and genocide and look now at England and Australia. The criminals have taken over and violent crime is at record highs and firearm murders are at record highs, even though guns are banned. So yes their is a right answer, keep a heavily armed populace and allow people to protect themselves.

Same for homosexuality. You can go with the biblical look at it, which they hate because it doesn't agree with their life style. You can look at it from a medical perspective. Which will tell you their much more likely to contract aids and spread it among many other diseases. You can look at it from a biological and an anthropological stand point, where it states, its an indicator of a sick and dieing species. Biologically all living life is here for ONE main purpose, reproduction, Without it the species simply dies off. Of which, through this lifestyle their is none. I remember in anthropology class in college, my teachers talked about a tribe in Africa. The whole tribe was homosexual, their was completely no reproduction, so the only option they had to remain viable was go around and steal children from all the neighboring tribes. That's neither viable nor sustainable. So their are rational answers to these topics. Granted extremely emotionally charged.

But with that said, Yes they should be afforded equal rights as well as every American. But should they get "special" rights? I don't believe so. So they be able to push and cram their lifestyle and beliefs down our throats? I don't think so either. Which is precisely what I see them trying to do. Look at the bakery owner in Colorado. He said he'd make the gay couple a cake just not a wedding cake, due to religious beliefs. A normal sane decent person would simply go another bakery. Not these people pushed their will on them and sued them. Which the courts decided to side with them and threw the guys religious rights and 1st amendment rights right out the window. Which I will tell you is a very dangerous ruling for our constitution. The anti gunners are doing the same thing. I thought we were suppose to be a free country and not be allowed to punish and push everyone to do and live a certain way.

[XDM45]

XDM45. I happen to agree with you on most things and respect your opinion. But to be honest I have to disagree with you on this one.

There are definite right and wrong answers to a lot of these. yes granted people do think with emotion and add emotion to their cause. The liberals understand that. That's why they spearhead these topics and definitely use them to their advantage and push their agenda. They know people have gotten so they cant think with their brain and think solely on emotion. Was it by their design I don't know. But take an honest look at these topics through history, nature and biology and their does come honest answers.

Yes sports teams is completely a personal opinion with no right or wrong answer. Because for one thing in the entire scheme of things it means absolutely nothing, but lets face it, its fun and makes for a fun relief of reality.

Lets look at guns for instance. The anti's want you to believe its all for personal safety and keeping everyone safe for the imaginary boogieman. When anyone with any knowledge and rational thought knows gun control only attacks the legal law abiding citizen, doesn't stop crime and murder. It simply doesn't work. It only attacks those who are not going to go and rationally attack innocent people. yet the anti-gunners go and paint us all as evil, for one purpose their agenda. We can take a look in the not so distant history and see where that agenda leads and its not pretty. Its full of tyrants and genocide and look now at England and Australia. The criminals have taken over and violent crime is at record highs and firearm murders are at record highs, even though guns are banned. So yes their is a right answer, keep a heavily armed populace and allow people to protect themselves.

Same for homosexuality. You can go with the biblical look at it, which they hate because it doesn't agree with their life style. You can look at it from a medical perspective. Which will tell you their much more likely to contract aids and spread it among many other diseases. You can look at it from a biological and an anthropological stand point, where it states, its an indicator of a sick and dieing species. Biologically all living life is here for ONE main purpose, reproduction, Without it the species simply dies off. Of which, through this lifestyle their is none. I remember in anthropology class in college, my teachers talked about a tribe in Africa. The whole tribe was homosexual, their was completely no reproduction, so the only option they had to remain viable was go around and steal children from all the neighboring tribes. That's neither viable nor sustainable. So their are rational answers to these topics. Granted extremely emotionally charged.

But with that said, Yes they should be afforded equal rights as well as every American. But should they get "special" rights? I don't believe so. So they be able to push and cram their lifestyle and beliefs down our throats? I don't think so either. Which is precisely what I see them trying to do. Look at the bakery owner in Colorado. He said he'd make the gay couple a cake just not a wedding cake, due to religious beliefs. A normal sane decent person would simply go another bakery. Not these people pushed their will on them and sued them. Which the courts decided to side with them and threw the guys religious rights and 1st amendment rights right out the window. Which I will tell you is a very dangerous ruling for our constitution. The anti gunners are doing the same thing. I thought we were suppose to be a free country and not be allowed to punish and push everyone to do and live a certain way.

It's all good and we agree I think.

Let me explain it this way, hopefully I don't make a mess of this.......

If you look at 2 glasses, we can agree that 1 glass + a 2nd glass = 2 glasses right? Of course. We know that 1 + 1 = 2 and it adds up, scientifically makes sense, etc. However, if we look at it from a Metaphysical level, everything is energy and so there really isn't even one glass really,. We just believe there to be one, or two glasses, so there they are..... but not really. Nothing is really physical, nothing really exists. So it's a matter of how deep do you want to look at things? How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? We could just walk around all day and say that everything is energy, which it is, BUT we wouldn't really get anything done in this incarnate life, so we must call some energy a door, while other energy is a wall, and other energy is a glass, gun, car, etc.

I tend to live at the Metaphysical level, but obviously I acknowledge the other level since I live incarnate. That's what I mean by it's all perspective, how you look at things, etc.

As for right and wrong, each person decides that for themselves. I think it'd be safe to say that for some things, such as molesting children, we would find a collective of individuals, (probably most people), who would say that it's wrong to molest children....and I'd agree that it is wrong. Of course we have those people who think it's right, and they, like everyone else, have their own version of right and wrong for themselves. I don't think there's anything that is universally right or wrong for everyone.

If there's one thing that matters in this World, it's Love. Not guns, not money, material possessions, status, jobs, etc. NONE of that matters. When you enter this realm incarnate, you enter naked with nothing. When you leave it, you do so with everything that does matter... Love of your family and friends, memories and experiences, the intangibles that money cannot buy. I tend to look at life differently than many people do, and even more so now that I have my terminal Cancer. It gives one a certain insight, ya know what I mean?

[bensdad]

As for right and wrong, each person decides that for themselves. I think it'd be safe to say that for some things, such as molesting children, we would find a collective of individuals, (probably most people), who would say that it's wrong to molest children....and I'd agree that it is wrong. Of course we have those people who think it's right, and they, like everyone else, have their own version of right and wrong for themselves. I don't think there's anything that is universally right or wrong for everyone.

That's fun... in a philosophy class. In real life, people get hurt or killed. Lives get wasted. Communities are torn apart. Cultures are destroyed. land is contaminated beyond useability. And, believe it or not, young people are terrorized to the point of suicide for rediculous things like having a child whom his classmates have known as a boy for a decade, meander into the girl's locker room to change for gym class.

At the end of the world, in the great scheme of the cosmos, yeah... I get your point... tree falls in the woods and such. But I'm here now. My kids will be here later. Their future will be determined by well-intentioned, and not so well-intentioned people who know damn well the difference between right and wrong.