Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby steve4102 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:03 pm

As you post is quite lengthy, It take some time for me to comment on all of your errors.

For Starters.

Also the requirement that a person answer the questions on form 4473 section 11 is potentially a violation of the 5th amendment protection against self incrimination.


No it is not. Do you even know what the Fifth Amendment says? The clause at issue reads:

"No person shall ...be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,."

Filling out a 4473 involves no compulsion. You don't have to buy a gun. You can avoid filling out a 4473 just by going without a gun, and you cannot go to jail for not having a gun. But if you choose to have a gun and fill out a 4473 to buy it lawfully from a dealer, you can then be held criminally responsible if you lie and violate 18 USC 922(a)(6).
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Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby jshuberg on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:08 pm

Cite for the statute, cite for the case law. Simple request.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby steve4102 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:15 pm

jshuberg wrote:Cite for the statute, cite for the case law. Simple request.


Workin on it.

In the mean time, cite your statute and case law that declares or even attempted to declare any part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 Unconstitutional.

I'll be back with my research, you do the same.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby jshuberg on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:57 pm

steve4102 wrote:In the mean time, cite your statute and case law that declares or even attempted to declare any part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 Unconstitutional.

Now you're just trolling, which is likely what you've been doing throughout this thread. No case law exists, yet. As I stated, now that the 2nd amendment has been found to protect an individual right, the 5th and 14th amendment due process clauses must apply to 2nd amendment. A person cannot be deprived of his 2nd amendment rights without due process of law. Period.

As to your argument regarding form 4473 section 11, you'll note my use of the word potentially, as the likelihood of this to be a constitutional violation is less certain. I tend to believe it is a violation however, as it requires a person to incriminate themself or commit a crime by lying on a federal document in order to exercise a fundamental human right. The courts have found that barriers to the free exercise of rights (or even privileges) are very often unconstitutional. Think poll taxes. Requiring a federally licensed dealer to complete a standardized form for transfer is one thing. Requiring the transferee to incriminate themself, potentially for crimes that they have never been convicted or even accused of, and making it a federal crime to lie, all as a prerequisite for the exercise of a fundamental human right is very very deep into the gray area constitutionally. Again, this is less certain, which explains my usage of the word potentially.

With the exception of the NFA of 1934, all federal firearms laws are specifically worded to apply to licensed dealers and manufacturers, and of the transfer of a firearm (Any FFLs out there please correct me if I'm wrong on this). The reason is that the federal government does not have a constitutional charter to regulate firearms. They do so under the commerce clause of the constitution. Through this piece of convoluted legal precedent, they are able to regulate the manufacture and transfer of firearms, as they effect interstate commerce. They are not able to regulate the ownership of firearms through the commerce clause, as simply being in possession of a firearm does not effect interstate commerce.

The government does claim that they can regulate the ownership of NFA weapons based on the theory that NFA weapons are not protected by the 2nd amendment. This was decided in favor of the government by the supreme court in US v. Miller in 1938. However, this ruling is highly unusual as the plaintiffs filed no brief and did not appear before the court for oral arguments. The court simply had to accept the governments arguments as no opposing arguments were made. In the Heller ruling the court stated that the Miller ruling was so unusual that it should not be considered to set a legal precedent, and held the only valid finding from Miller was that the 2nd amendment protects all weapons that are commonly used for lawful purposes, and not those that are commonly used by criminals for crime. By this definition, its also possible if not likely that NFA weapons are protected by the 2nd amendment, as they are commonly used for lawful purposes, and almost never for crime. Despite the fact that several hundred thousand machine guns are privately owned in the US, only twice since 1934 has a lawfully registered machine gun been used in a crime. This is another area that I would like to see reexamined by the court post-Heller at some point.

I won't state with absolute certainty that there has never been a case where a person has been charged with a federal crime for being in possession of a non-NFA weapon. Based on my understanding of the law, I doubt that it has happened. I believe that the only convictions you will find will be for the unlawful manufacture, transfer, or possession at a federally prohibited location. Again though, if ou know of one, provide the cite.
Last edited by jshuberg on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby steve4102 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:03 pm

I tend to believe it is a violation however,


So there it is, your belief, not the Law.

As the Law stands right now, The ATF requires users of Medical Pot to answer yes on 11e. It also requires the FFL involved to deny transfer if he/she believes the person in question is a "Prohibited Person" according to Gun Control Act of 1968. The Gun Control Act of 1968 as Clearly states that users of Pot are no allowed to own firearms or ammunition.

What you believe is irrelevant, what is Relevant is what the law "Today" states and your "Beliefs" cannot change that.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby jshuberg on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:20 pm

steve4102 wrote:US Federal Law says it is Illegal to possess a firearm if you are a user of Pot. A Fact and a Law that has passed Constitutional Muster.

Once again, please provide a cite that posession of a firearm is against federal law if you are a user of pot, and the case law where that statute was found to be constitutional.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby bstrawse on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:23 pm

You can say GCA 1968 all that you want- but you need to refer to and cite *current* federal statutes in order to ensure you're talking about the actual, current, in-force, statutes.

18 USC 922 (g) contains the prohibition on an addict or user of a controlled substance from possessing, transferring, etc, etc, a firearm. "Controlled Substance" being a specifically defined term within federal law.

Coffee is not on that list :)

I have no idea if this has been tested in federal court - but I'd love to see the case law (with cite(s) to the cases)

Thanks -
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby mrp on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:12 pm

bstrawse wrote:You can say GCA 1968 all that you want- but you need to refer to and cite *current* federal statutes in order to ensure you're talking about the actual, current, in-force, statutes.

18 USC 922 (g) contains the prohibition on an addict or user of a controlled substance from possessing, transferring, etc, etc, a firearm. "Controlled Substance" being a specifically defined term within federal law.

Coffee is not on that list :)

I have no idea if this has been tested in federal court - but I'd love to see the case law (with cite(s) to the cases)

Thanks -
B


You might find something in the Firearms Primer 2013 - United States Sentencing Commission. You may want to bookmark it for future reference anyway -- lots of case law cited.
http://www.ussc.gov/Legal/Primers/Primer_Firearms.pdf
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby bstrawse on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Thanks! I'll file that away for future use -
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby steve4102 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:11 pm

jshuberg wrote:
steve4102 wrote:In the mean time, cite your statute and case law that declares or even attempted to declare any part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 Unconstitutional.

Now you're just trolling,


Trolling? How the hell can I be trolling my own thread? I Started this thread to show you guys what is in store when MN legalized Medical Pot and How the Federal Government recognizes the relationship between Pot and Guns. You want to argue the facts and the Constitutionality of existing laws go for it. My comments on your "Beliefs" are no more trolling then your comments on my "Facts".
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:10 am

steve4102 wrote:
jshuberg wrote:
steve4102 wrote:In the mean time, cite your statute and case law that declares or even attempted to declare any part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 Unconstitutional.

Now you're just trolling,


Trolling? How the hell can I be trolling my own thread? I Started this thread to show you guys what is in store when MN legalized Medical Pot and How the Federal Government recognizes the relationship between Pot and Guns. You want to argue the facts and the Constitutionality of existing laws go for it. My comments on your "Beliefs" are no more trolling then your comments on my "Facts".


I think he meant rolling.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:22 am

http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/marijuana-la ... ownership/

.
Marijuana laws new tool to ban gun ownership


As attorneys Todd Garvey and Brian Yeh wrote in the report, Washington has flexibility regarding drug prosecution, stating, “The extent to which federal authorities will actually seek to prosecute individuals who are engaged in marijuana-related activities in Colorado and Washington remains uncertain. President Obama himself has suggested the prosecuting simple possession is not a priority, while the Department of Justice has said only that ‘growing, selling or possession any amount of marijuana remains illegal under federal law.’”

What is more certain, they wrote, is that federal firearms regulators will be aggressive about banning anyone who uses marijuana from buying – or possessing – a weapon.
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Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby jshuberg on Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:22 am

Yeah, well the real solution here is simply not to be a pothead. It's very likely that the abuse of "prohibited persons" will be challenged. Most likely someone in California, where failure to pay parking tickets on time results in becoming a prohibited person.

The underlying problem is that behavior alone is not sufficient to result in the loss of a right. Persons convicted of violent felonies are properly considered a prohibited person, as they have already argued their case before a judge, and have demonstrated that they are violent. There is also a mechanism by which to have their rights restored after they have served their sentence.

Note that "convicted felons" are who have lost their 2nd amendment right, not people who have engaged in activity that could result in their being convicted of a violent felony. The activity alone is not sufficient to result in the loss of a right, which again requires due process. Only after a person has been convicted of a violent felony are their 2nd amendment rights stripped of them. This is how it should be.

Comparatively, potheads and other abuses of "prohibited persons" presume to strip a persons rights not as the result of a conviction or judicial determination, but from simply having engaged in an activity. This is so obviously a violation of due process protections that I would expect this anise to be corrected in the next couple years. Engaging in activity alone cannot result in the denial of fundamental rights, and a judge cannot strip a person of his rights, and then backdate this determination to some previous point in history. Legal determinations are only valid as of the date they were made.

We all need to become aware of the law, our rights, and when the government presumes to make law that tramples our rights. When this happens, we need to stand up and put a stop to it.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby XDM45 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:55 pm

This could all be avoided if weed was legalized.

Legalize it. Tax it. Just like booze and cigarettes. Let people grow a small amount (just like people can home brew beer) and live and let live.
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Re: Legalized Marijuana and Firearms.

Postby Slayer_MN1 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:28 pm

First off, Shuberg wins. Hands down, no question.

XDM45 wrote:This could all be avoided if weed was legalized.

Legalize it. Tax it. Just like booze and cigarettes. Let people grow a small amount (just like people can home brew beer) and live and let live.


And amen to that XDM, just think of all the money the mexican cartels would be out if everyone grew there weed at home. Not to mention the huge increase in tax revenue and decrease in numbers in the prison system. I am not a user of marijuana, but I cannot begin to understand why anyone would appose ending the prohibition. (Other than the federal government having to admit they were wrong all these years of course)
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