212 shut down police chase

[smurfman]

Wait - let me shoot the knife from your hand while you wave it around, oh shucks, I grazed the artery in your arm. leg whatever - no I go into court and explain I wasn't trying to kill you just wound you! Whats that your honor anytime I shoot someone its DEADLY FORCE!
It still amazes me the number of people who have not got a clue!

Whadda ya mean?!? I saw them do this on Starsky & Hutch and Hawaii 5-0 many times!!!!

As for the use of less lethal, winter clothing is very good at negating the effects of Tasers as they require both barbs to pierce the skin. Clothing is well known to prevent this, even summer weight material.

As for bean bag rounds, not every squad carries a bean bag gun nor would one have been pulled for such an incident. Bean bag guns are typically carried in the trunk and require some time to access then deploy them. this was too quick of an escalation in which to employ one. And even then there is no guarantee of its having the desired effect as winter clothing, drugs, and sheer willpower can negate its effectiveness.

I know more than a couple officers who have been involved in shootings, getting "the facts" out has taken months and even years to be released. Even then few bother than to read the abridged version given out by the papers and that only tells the story they want.

[ttousi]

Tueller drill in play here also I believe

[bensdad]

carries a bean bag gun nor would one have been pulled for such an incident. Bean bag guns

I am unfamiliar with these bean bag guns of which you speak.

[ttousi]

carries a bean bag gun nor would one have been pulled for such an incident. Bean bag guns

I am unfamiliar with these bean bag guns of which you speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_bag_round

[ZardozCZ]

and if the cops shot them in their legs they would have slit their own throats... Cops kill way too quickly these days. But I suppose it saves on lengthy court cases and prison costs so it's worth a few lives, huh. Specially since they cannot tell their side now that it's buried with them. Just taking out the human trash. And when they deem us trash for having weapons, you gonna be suicide by cop too?

I'd rather tell my story to a judge than be tried convicted and executed by some badge. But that would be constitutional process.

[dismal]

FWIW, They also stole some different license plates and put them on this car.

Also FWIW, they stole a car in Rochester a few weeks ago, but were caught and released.

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/crime/two-killed-by-police-had-outstanding-warrants-in-olmsted-county/article_84406c68-c7bd-546f-80d7-cd412b483b81.html

Sent using Tapatalk.

[jshuberg]

Please one of the LEOs on the forum correct me if I'm wrong, but less lethal munitions such as tasers, pepper spray, bean bag rounds, etc. are intended and available for use when deadly force is not authorized. They are used as reasonable force in non-deadly situations to subdue a suspect. Once a situation has escalated to deadly force, doing anything other than matching force for force with the bad guy would be the unnecessary risking your own life. If a bad guy pulls a knife or a gun, responding with less lethal force is simply ridiculously stupid.

As far as shooting to wound goes, anyone who thinks this is a reasonable response really needs to take a defensive firearm class. You shoot to eliminate the threat, and continue to put rounds center mass until the bad guy no longer poses a threat. Also, when you hear about a bad guy being shot 16 or 20 times, keep in mind that every officer is shooting to eliminate the threat. If there was only one cop, the bad guy may only have been shot 3 or 4 times. If there were 5 cops, each one should respond as if he was the only one there, he should not rely on one of his buddies to eliminate the threat for him. When you hear about a bad guy being shot dozens of times by police, it doesn't mean excessive force was used. It likely means that multiple cops simultaneously responded with reasonable force to the threat.

If the scenario being described was what happened, it sounds like the officers involved responded reasonably, and within the law. It sucks to be the bad guy.

[LarryFlew]

Totally surprises me that there are this many without a clue even after taking the most basic classes let alone any real defense training or even some reading. Always hit the bullseye? Practice those knee shots and shooting a knife out of the purps hands? Never done any competition with adrenalin flowing?

Get real and/or pray you don't get stabbed or shot trying NOT to kill your assailant.

[LarryP]

Use your brain!! When a police force has surrounded 2 people, one bad guy with a knife isn't a threat against dozens of guns. They weren't even close to a cop. How could the cops be in danger?? it's not a one on one situation like you mentioned. There was no reason to kill them in that scenario.

Totally surprises me that there are this many without a clue even after taking the most basic classes let alone any real defense training or even some reading. Always hit the bullseye? Practice those knee shots and shooting a knife out of the purps hands? Never done any competition with adrenalin flowing?

Get real and/or pray you don't get stabbed or shot trying NOT to kill your assailant.

[911scanner]

When a police force has surrounded 2 people, one bad guy is with a knife against dozens of guns. They weren't even close to a cop. How could the cops be in danger?? it's not a one on one situation like you mention. There was no reason to kill them in that scenario. I hope the cops who shot them are haunted by it & think about it every day for the rest of their life. no better than the gestapo

Stop being such a feel good bliss ninny. Both of these people were in the commission of multiple felonies at the time of the shooting, not to mention the storied history of the male involved and the active felony warrants on both of the people killed.

That is not to say that I think either person "deserved" the outcome of dying at that moment, but you are not talking about a couple of teens that made a couple of minor mistakes here. At the very least, he was a fairly hardened criminal with a deadly weapon in hand, being ordered to put it down by many armed officers. At the very least, it was suicide by cop x2.

Start worrying about and jumping on your soapbox to complain about no-knock warrants more than this one. At least most of those are either mistakes or over "the evil weed".

[LarryP]

What threat thou?? Dozens of cops- guns drawn & 1 guy with a knife? Give me a break If he had a gun, different story

I guess we all agree to disagree. Interesting thread

As far as shooting to wound goes, anyone who thinks this is a reasonable response really needs to take a defensive firearm class. You shoot to eliminate the threat, and continue to put rounds center mass until the bad guy no longer poses a threat. Also, when you hear about a bad guy being shot 16 or 20 times, keep in mind that every officer is shooting to eliminate the threat. If there was only one cop, the bad guy may only have been shot 3 or 4 times. If there were 5 cops, each one should respond as if he was the only one there, he should not rely on one of his buddies to eliminate the threat for him. When you hear about a bad guy being shot dozens of times by police, it doesn't mean excessive force was used. It likely means that multiple cops simultaneously responded with reasonable force to the threat.

If the scenario being described was what happened, it sounds like the officers involved responded reasonably, and within the law. It sucks to be the bad guy.

[LarryP]

No knock warrants can be very flawed. I'm surprised the general public hasn't complained more

Start worrying about and jumping on your soapbox to complain about no-knock warrants more than this one. At least most of those are either mistakes or over "the evil weed".

[jshuberg]

I believe that the original story called this a possible hostage situation. If the guy made any indication that he might hurt the person he was with, the police would have been justified in shooting him even if they weren't in imminent risk of death or great bodily harm. We weren't there, we simply don't know the circumstances of what happened.

If the cops had overreacted, or escalated the level of violence beyond what was necessary, then I'd agree with you. That isn't what happened here though. The bad guy escalated the situation to deadly force. The police tried to deescalate the situation by ordering him to drop the knife, and when he did not they responded with deadly force. It sounds like they did the job we pay them to do. The public owes them their gratitude.

[xd9]

Here is a interesting article about use of force.

Use of force: Downfalls of the continuum model

http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/5643926-Use-of-force-Downfalls-of-the-continuum-model/

The courts have been very clear in saying:

1.) the test is one of reasonableness and not escalation, and
2.) officers are not required to use or try lesser alternatives to work up to reasonable force.

If those 2 wanted to live, its hard to believe they DID NOT UNDERSTAND TO DROP THE KNIFE. If that was hard for them to understand, then that explains some of their recent life choices they made. Anyone who has seen a movie or TV show that shows cops knows "drop the weapon and put your hands up". Not a hard concept to grasp. This sure looks like suicide by cop given how reckless they were the moments before any triggers were pulled.

[tman]

Use your brain!! When a police force has surrounded 2 people, one bad guy with a knife isn't a threat against dozens of guns. They weren't even close to a cop. How could the cops be in danger?? it's not a one on one situation like you mentioned. There was no reason to kill them in that scenario.

THEY had complete control of the outcome. THEY chose to get shot by their own actions.


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