Officers shoot and kill man in his home during raid

[gunsmith]

Here's a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot for you:

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/02/16/v ... -gone-bad/

[911scanner]

Because a no-knock can and often has resulted in unnecessary death and damage to property, the least amount of force and violence should be utilized when executing a warrant.

I dispute the assertion that it's often. It's like the instances of school shootings. Highly publicized but infrequent.


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Just to be entirely clear on the subject....

Although I do respect what I know of you TMan, "often" is a subjective word at best, whether used by you or jshulberg. As I'm sure you & many other LEO's would agree, any negative outcome from one of these warrants towards any innocents, even just once, is one time too many. And it seems to happen as often if not more than school shootings.

The policy that this is a go to standard for anything other than a OBL/UBL situation is just mind boggling. Any instance that results in more than just a felon dying means the policy should be changed. Period.

[tman]

The number of no knock warrants that are executed is probably a lot higher than you think.

That said, of course I don't want innocent people hurt or killed.


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[LePetomane]

The number of no knock warrants that are executed is probably a lot higher than you think.

That said, of course I don't want innocent people hurt or killed.

Two questions for you:
1. Have you ever served one?
2. in the event of a mistaken address, who is responsible for the damages and repairs to the home?

Thanks.

[Mn01r6]

2. in the event of a mistaken address, who is responsible for the damages and repairs to the home?

Wegner v. Milwaukee Mutual Insurance Company, 479 N.W.2d 38 (Minn. 1991)
"We believe the better rule, in situations where an innocent third party's property is taken, damaged or destroyed by the police in the course of apprehending a suspect, is for the municipality to compensate the innocent party for the resulting damages. The policy considerations in this case center around the basic notions of fairness and justice. At its most basic level, the issue is whether it is fair to allocate the entire risk of loss to an innocent homeowner for the good of the public. We do not believe the imposition of such a burden on the innocent citizens of this state would square with the underlying principles of our system of justice. Therefore, the City must reimburse Wegner for the losses sustained."

[tman]

Two questions for you:
1. Have you ever served one?
2. in the event of a mistaken address, who is responsible for the damages and repairs to the home?

Thanks.

1. During the course of the life if this thread

2. In the event if a mistaken entry I would have to guess that the department would foot the bill, but I cannot speak from experience.

Remember, cops don't WANT to go to the WRONG house either.


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[ijosef]

I still have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that SWAT would raid the wrong house. How, exactly, does that happen? Something has to go seriously wrong in the logistical/planning stages for it to happen, especially to pass through all the safeguards and redundancy that's (hopefully) part of the process.

If raids are conducted on the wrong house and the occupants are injured or killed, someone in the police force needs to go down for it. "Whoops, sorry" shouldn't cut it anymore, nor should "cleared after a thorough internal investigation." Firings and criminal charges need to happen.

[farmerj]

I still have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that SWAT would raid the wrong house. How, exactly, does that happen? Something has to go seriously wrong in the logistical/planning stages for it to happen, especially to pass through all the safeguards and redundancy that's (hopefully) part of the process.

If raids are conducted on the wrong house and the occupants are injured or killed, someone in the police force needs to go down for it. "Whoops, sorry" shouldn't cut it anymore, nor should "cleared after a thorough internal investigation." Firings and criminal charges need to happen.

How could it happen? Same way you show up at a "buddy's house" at the wrong address.....

123 E clyde st instead of 123 W Clyde ST.

or 132 E Clyde ST instead of 123 E Clyde ST....

It's possible an error made in the address entered.....

I've had it happen more than I care to admit on my loads I deliver. It's why, unless I have been to a place, I always call to confirm the address. Like they'd REALLY be calling on a no-knock though.







as an aside.....

Last couple weeks I have been watching on and off a bunch of National Geographic Explorer series on gangs; Aryan Brotherhood, MS13, Bloods and Crips. I can see why the need for these no-knocks....

But that's a hell of a long way from what some of this stuff in the media lately has been getting shared.

[Mn01r6]

Watch the NatGeo episodes on meth addicts - paranoia and violence are a product of that drug and if given any warning, odds are a methed up addict answers a knock at the door by shooting a hole through it...if they're not too busy dismantling electronics.

[farmerj]

Watch the NatGeo episodes on meth addicts - paranoia and violence are a product of that drug and if given any warning, odds are a methed up addict answers a knock at the door by shooting a hole through it.

I am fully aware of a lot of this stuff....While not a civilian LEO, I retired as an MP from the Army Guard.

I have also got a major distaste for cops because I have been on the receiving end of their disposition and what they can do when they are fed biased information.

So while I might have a slight tolerance and tempered view of them, I still have seen major down turns in the purpose and actions of law enforcement which has made some rather significant "losses" in public trust over the past couple decades in their abuses.

[xd ED]

I still have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that SWAT would raid the wrong house. How, exactly, does that happen? Something has to go seriously wrong in the logistical/planning stages for it to happen, especially to pass through all the safeguards and redundancy that's (hopefully) part of the process.

If raids are conducted on the wrong house and the occupants are injured or killed, someone in the police force needs to go down for it. "Whoops, sorry" shouldn't cut it anymore, nor should "cleared after a thorough internal investigation." Firings and criminal charges need to happen.

In one of the more notorious local raids on the wrong house,the cops were awarded medals:

Minneapolis cops raid wrong house, fire 22 times, are awarded medals.

Vang Khang traded gunfire with Minneapolis police in December when they raided his house looking for a violent gang member. Khang’s family counted 22 bullet holes

A family whose house was raided by police in error is outraged that eight officers involved were honored. Police say the eight, who also took fire, "performed bravely."

This could have been handled better, I suspect.

[xd ED]

Watch the NatGeo episodes on meth addicts - paranoia and violence are a product of that drug and if given any warning, odds are a methed up addict answers a knock at the door by shooting a hole through it...if they're not too busy dismantling electronics.

So don't knock on a meth addict's door. If the dude never leaves his premises, he really isn't much of a threat. If he does step out, nail him then.

[Mn01r6]

Watch the NatGeo episodes on meth addicts - paranoia and violence are a product of that drug and if given any warning, odds are a methed up addict answers a knock at the door by shooting a hole through it...if they're not too busy dismantling electronics.

So don't knock on a meth addict's door. If the dude never leaves his premises, he really isn't much of a threat. If he does step out, nail him then.

Meth dealer/addict/cook kinda go hand in hand. Plus it doesn't really matter where they arrest the guy, if it is mistaken identity it still means getting swat swarming an innocent persons car with the potential for things to go horribly wrong. Your solution doesn't really solve your problem.

[AutomaticAron]

This is an incredibly unpopular opinion, but I feel It's the duty of police to protect the public from harm, part of that duty involves sacrificing their own personal safety. LEOs accept a level of risk and responsibility when they accept the badge. They should be erring on the side of the safety of those they've sworn to protect and serve rather than their own. And if they're not willing or able to accept such responsibility then they should find another line of work.

I couldn't do that, which is why I am not and never will be a law enforcement officer.


I believe jshuberg's post earlier hit the nail as square on the head as any nail has ever been hit.

[LePetomane]

In one of the more notorious local raids on the wrong house,the cops were awarded medals:

Minneapolis cops raid wrong house, fire 22 times, are awarded medals.

Vang Khang traded gunfire with Minneapolis police in December when they raided his house looking for a violent gang member. Khang’s family counted 22 bullet holes

A family whose house was raided by police in error is outraged that eight officers involved were honored. Police say the eight, who also took fire, "performed bravely."

Incompetence rewarded. One of the problems I have is whenever something like this happens the "powers that be" go right to the self appointed "leaders" in the minority community to cover their tracks. These "community leaders" keep their people in line thus enhancing their status with the elite.