2 teens killed after allegedly breaking into home;

[farmerj]

They have been posted here in past discussion on castle doctrine in MN. I am not going to search from the phone for them.

[greenfarmer]

Ok, after reading about this case, and reading testimony, and following tweets from people covering it. It's real hard to comment on it whether he is innocent or guilty. But I do have a few questions, and maybe some points.

Since he shot the male suspect first, and fired a few shots, since the girl didn't leave, that would raise questions to me! She's still in the house, starts looking for him. What was going thru her head? The autopsy said she had enough cold med's in her system for her to legally be intoxicated. So, was she so intoxicated that she never heard the gunshots, and ran? That's where I can side with him in a way. If you have 2 people that break into your house, and you shoot one several times. I would think if the other person isn't standing right there to see it happen, that they would take off running after hearing gunshots. But the fact that they didn't leave, would be enough to scare me and worry me enough to think they are high or something to the point of being crazy, or that maybe they do have weapons, and they could harm me. So yes, in a way I can see why he did make sure the first person is deceased. And why he made sure the second one is deceased as well.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I know if a couple of people broke into my house, and I was in the same situation, and the second one didn't leave, I would be even more concerned!

[JTapper]

Ok, after reading about this case, and reading testimony, and following tweets from people covering it. It's real hard to comment on it whether he is innocent or guilty. But I do have a few questions, and maybe some points.

Since he shot the male suspect first, and fired a few shots, since the girl didn't leave, that would raise questions to me! She's still in the house, starts looking for him. What was going thru her head? The autopsy said she had enough cold med's in her system for her to legally be intoxicated. So, was she so intoxicated that she never heard the gunshots, and ran? That's where I can side with him in a way. If you have 2 people that break into your house, and you shoot one several times. I would think if the other person isn't standing right there to see it happen, that they would take off running after hearing gunshots. But the fact that they didn't leave, would be enough to scare me and worry me enough to think they are high or something to the point of being crazy, or that maybe they do have weapons, and they could harm me. So yes, in a way I can see why he did make sure the first person is deceased. And why he made sure the second one is deceased as well.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I know if a couple of people broke into my house, and I was in the same situation, and the second one didn't leave, I would be even more concerned!

I don't have any of the articles up in front of me, but I am fairly certain the time between shootings was 11 minutes. The only thing I can think of is that she remained outside, and may not have heard the shots since they were fired in the basement. Depending on the round, proximity of the location he fired from, and the layout of the house, it's totally plausible that she may not have heard the shots, or heard something but didn't realize it was gunshots.

I try and keep my opinions to myself most of the time, but the fact that he had a chair with water and snacks set up, lightbulbs removed from the area and set by his chair, leads me to believe he fully intended on shooting anyone who came down his stairs. This isn't really that big of a problem for me, however the way he acted AFTER the shooting took place is what makes me think he could have acted differently. Delivering a "finishing shot", mocking them as he fired additional rounds, and then hiding the bodies and placing rugs over the blood stains in the concrete shows me that he tried to cover his actions. Coupled with the fact that he never called police, and instead asked his neighbor for advice on a lawyer, leads me to believe he had every idea that he acted outside of the realm of self defense.

[gunsmith]

Maybe i'm wrong, but I know if a couple of people broke into my house, and I was in the same situation, and the second one didn't leave, I would be even more concerned!

That is odd...whenever you see these security cams of robbery / assaults...it is almost UNIVERSAL that the others flee and it would appear 'as fast as humanly possible'

Why did she stay?

FACT: (just kidding...I'm citing a report from KSTP website) The first shot killed the male.

FACT: The second shot to the female was the lethal one.

This is from testimony from the prosecution's witness an 'expert' of some sort.

so...only 3 gunshots are in question....the additional shots are ???? (I don't know...heat of the moment? but NON-LETHAL...)

I'd say the shooter is ok on the male. and iffy on the female.

I 'practice' a 14 round mag dump for situations like this...The full magazine @ center mass, then re-evaluate. If the bad guy

expects more subtlety then he has obviously committed a felony in the wrong Castle. Possibly a warning plaque with

something like:

" Warning Felons: Home Invasion attempts are met with 'full mag dumps of sophisticated High-Power Hollow Point Bullets' If you prefer verbal pleading and maybe a warning shot with round nosed practice ammo please commit your Felony elsewhere"

The NYC police are well know for an inability to successfully place a round in a perp who they wish to 'neutralize' ...possibly the NYC police dept has a 1 to 5 ratio for 'hits' to 'misses' 1 hit for every 5 misses.

There are many stories of multiple officers firing off DOZENS of rounds with few hits on the 'bad guy'

The Shooting of Amadou Diallo is the most famous one. Here's the Wikipedia:

In the early morning of February 4, 1999, Diallo was standing near his building after returning from a meal. At about 12:40 a.m., police officers Edward McMellon, Sean Carroll, Kenneth Boss and Richard Murphy, who were all in street clothes, passed by in a Ford Taurus. Observing that Diallo matched the description of a since-captured well-armed serial rapist involved in the rape or attempted rape of 51 victims, they approached him.[3][4][5]

The officers claimed they loudly identified themselves as NYPD officers and that Diallo ran up the outside steps toward his apartment house doorway at their approach, ignoring their orders to stop and "show his hands". The porch lightbulb was out and Diallo was backlit by the inside vestibule light, showing only a silhouette. Diallo then reached into his jacket and withdrew his wallet. Seeing the suspect holding a small square object, Carroll yelled "Gun!" to alert his colleagues. Mistakenly believing Diallo had aimed a gun at them at close range, the officers opened fire on Diallo. During the shooting, lead officer McMellon tripped backward off the front stairs, causing the other officers to believe he had been shot. The four officers fired 41 shots, more than half of which went astray as Diallo was hit 19 times.[1]

The post-shooting investigation found no weapons on Diallo's body; the item he had pulled out of his jacket was not a gun, but a rectangular black wallet. The internal NYPD investigation ruled the officers had acted within policy, based on what a reasonable police officer would have done in the same circumstances with the information they had. The Diallo shooting led to a review of police training policy and the use of full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets. On March 25, 1999, a Bronx grand jury indicted the four officers on charges of second-degree murder and reckless endangerment. On December 16, an appellate court ordered a change of venue to Albany, New York, stating that pretrial publicity had made a fair trial in New York City impossible. On February 25, 2000, after two days of deliberation, a mixed-race jury in Albany acquitted the officers of all charges. Officer Kenneth Boss had been previously involved in an incident where an armed man was shot. A 22-year-old man, Patrick Bailey, died after Boss shot him on October 31, 1997.[6] As of 2012, Boss is the only remaining officer working for the NYPD, performing duties such as making repairs at Floyd Bennett Field and participating in police drills and exercises.[7] In October 2012, Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly restored Boss' ability to carry a firearm against the protests of Diallo's family.[8]
Aftermath[edit]

Diallo's death, the change of venue, and the verdict each sparked massive demonstrations against police brutality and racial profiling, resulting in more than 1,700 arrests over the course of many weeks. Those arrested in the daily protests at the entrance of One Police Plaza included former NYPD officers, former mayor David Dinkins, Congressmen Charlie Rangel and Gregory Meeks, Rev. Al Sharpton, Rev. Jesse Jackson, New York State Assemblyman Ruben Diaz Jr., activist actress Susan Sarandon, more than a dozen rabbis and other clergy, and numerous federal, state, and local politicians. Charges against the protesters were later dropped.[citation needed]
======================================================================================================
On April 18, 2000, Diallo's mother, Kadiatou, and his stepfather, Sankarella Diallo, filed a US$61,000,000 ($20m plus $1m for each shot fired) lawsuit against the City of New York and the officers, charging gross negligence, wrongful death, racial profiling, and other violations of Diallo's civil rights. In March 2004, they accepted a US$3,000,000 settlement. The much lower final settlement was still reportedly one of the largest in the City of New York for a single man with no dependents under New York State's "wrongful death law", which limits damages to pecuniary loss by the decedent's next of kin.[9]
==========================================================================================================

The event spurred subsequent social psychology research. A number of experiments have conducted with both undergraduate volunteers and police officers playing a computer game where they must choose whether to shoot or not to shoot a target who may be white or black, on the basis of whether or not they are armed. Such studies find that participants made slower and less accurate decisions on whether to shoot an unarmed black target than an unarmed white target, and were quicker and more likely to correctly decide to shoot an armed black target than an armed white target. Both black and white participants respond in this manner. No correlations have been found between participant's indicated levels of racial bias, and their performance in the games.[11]

I did not know that this incident caused the NYC Police to use FMJ bullets instead of hollow points...but I think a more recent 'debacle' resulted in the official policy of the NYPD to be 'shoot 3 times and re-evaluate'

I practice '2 double taps and re-evalute' as my 'standard' response...that works out as '2 to the heart' and 2 to the head'

Bottom line......shouldn't the 64 year old shooter be 'Allowed' '3 shots and then re-evaluate' like the NYPD gets?

In war a battleship or submarine fires a 'Salvo' of rounds or torpedoes....I think that should apply to a life or death encounter in the fricking middle-of-the night in your home.

The whole situation is a little 'Hinkey' but I think Mr. Homeowner should 'be allowed' somewhere between 'A pair of Double-Taps" and a "Full Mag Dump" as a REASONABLE RESPONSE.

[farmerj]

prosecutor....
"Your first shot killed the attacker, why did you shoot him 15 times?"

Defendent...
"because my magazine doesn't hold 16 rounds."

If you TELL them that you practice the mozambique drill, they WILL nail you. You PRACTICED what you would do.

The correct answer, shut up and let your lawyer answer. Past that, "I was afraid for my life and shot to stop the action." End of answer, rinse and repeat.

[gunsmith]

prosecutor....
"Your first shot killed the attacker, why did you shoot him 15 times?"

Defendent...
"because my magazine doesn't hold 16 rounds."

If you TELL them that you practice the mozambique drill, they WILL nail you. You PRACTICED what you would do.

The correct answer, shut up and let your lawyer answer. Past that, "I was afraid for my life and shot to stop the action." End of answer, rinse and repeat.

I actually 'practice' 'Talking to the police' ....'Biting one's Tongue' after making the 'I feared for my LIfe' statement is important.

'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police'

[farmerj]

prosecutor....
"Your first shot killed the attacker, why did you shoot him 15 times?"

Defendent...
"because my magazine doesn't hold 16 rounds."

If you TELL them that you practice the mozambique drill, they WILL nail you. You PRACTICED what you would do.

The correct answer, shut up and let your lawyer answer. Past that, "I was afraid for my life and shot to stop the action." End of answer, rinse and repeat.

I actually 'practice' 'Talking to the police' ....'Biting one's Tongue' after making the 'I feared for my LIfe' statement is important.

'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police' 'Never Talk To The Police'

Nice reminder time...

[gunsmith]

Yup, have seen it.

[steve4102]

As already pointed out, MN Law justifies the Use of Deadly Force to stop the Commission of a felony in one place of abode.

This is what he did plain and simple.

The issue is his use of excess force by firing more shots than necessary after there was no longer a threat, and of course his Big Mouth.

The problem as I see it is, the First shot killed the boy, any additional shots were NOT Killing Shots of a wounded Man as the prosecution and Media contends. The second shot from the 22 is what killed the girl, any additional shots were also not Killing Shots.

Of course the Prosecution will argue that these subsequent shots are relevant because He did not know that they were already Dead.

[gunsmith]

The problem as I see it is, the First shot killed the boy, any additional shots were NOT Killing Shots of a wounded Man as the prosecution and Media contends. The second shot from the 22 is what killed the girl, any additional shots were also not Killing Shots.

Someone please Ed-u-ma-cate me on this....WHAT THE EFF DOES IT MATTER THAT THERE WERE SHOTS AFTER PERP WAS DEAD?

What crime is that? Abusing a corpse?

Also I DON'T think he's charged with excessive force ....I think he's charged with first degree INTENTIONAL muder...I did NOT hear anything about 'lesser included charges' like 2nd degree murder and manslaughter....hopefully the prosecutor is so in love with himself that he's making an error here.

The Meshbesher Family of lawyers is well know as the best criminal defense lawyers in Mn....but I hope he calls a gray haired, crew cut former Marine firearm instructor to explain to the jury how dangerous and complicated a home invasion is.

I'm proposing 'The Salvo Doctrine' that 4 shots = 1 'salvo' and in the dark in your home you get 'one salvo' free. AT LEAST. The jury needs, in my opinion, to be schooled on...how defensive gunfire works and if Meshbesher doesn't have a ex-military expert there to dazzle them he's not doing his job.

For Example: http://jeffcoopersmozambiquedrill.blogspot.com/

If any dangerous animal, including man, is able to remain standing after absorbing the trauma of a gunshot -– and it is a fact that gunshot wounds to the body rarely kill instantly -– his body has time to pull the pin on an adrenaline bomb that can make him appear to be bullet-proof in the face of follow-up shots. Stimulant drugs have the same effect, as does body armor. The concept of the Double-Tap is not one shot followed up quickly with another separate shot. The two shots must strike almost simultaneously, a double-barreled effect, in order to multiply the shock and destruction of the first shot. Two separate, aimed shots, even if they are fired within a brief interval of time, make up a “controlled pair,” which is not a bad thing but is not nearly as effective as a Double-Tap. Two shots that merge into one with a single aiming point and sight picture is what makes a Double-Tap.

In the classic Mozambique as defined by Jeff Cooper, the third shot, carefully aimed to the head, is only delivered after the shooter first pauses to evaluate the effectiveness of the Double-Tap to the body. I must disagree, however, and side with my associate Gabriel Suarez when he writes, “Place two shots in the chest then -– automatically and immediately -– stage the pistol for the head shot. Do not evaluate anything ... if you see his face in front of your sights, shoot.”

It’s a safe bet that nobody ever won a gunfight by pausing in the middle of it to observe a unilateral moment of silence.

The purpose of the head shot is to destroy the brain, thus shutting down the central nervous system and bringing hostilities to an immediate halt, no matter the presence of adrenaline or drugs or Kevlar. On a human target, place the shot from a low point between the adversary’s eyes to a high point in the center of his forehead. A higher shot may deflect off his skull and a lower shot may miss the switch and simply run up enormous dental and plastic surgery bills.

I want to see an old fart like this testifying as an expert witness with plastic guns for each member of the jury.

I think Mr. Homeowner should have gotten a Pit Bull, a German Shepard, a Doberman AND a Rottweiler and kept them hungry.

[xd ED]

The problem as I see it is, the First shot killed the boy, any additional shots were NOT Killing Shots of a wounded Man as the prosecution and Media contends. The second shot from the 22 is what killed the girl, any additional shots were also not Killing Shots.

Someone please Ed-u-ma-cate me on this....WHAT THE EFF DOES IT MATTER THAT THERE WERE SHOTS AFTER PERP WAS DEAD?

I'll try, but under the circumstances, I can't guarantee results.

The headline, and first paragraphs from the news:

Little Falls teens were not fatally wounded initially, M.E. testifies

LITTLE FALLS, Minn. -- The two Minnesota cousins killed by a man who claimed he was defending himself after they broke into his home were each shot multiple times, a medical examiner testified Thursday, and while the initial gunshots caused serious injury, they did not immediately kill the teens.

Byron Smith, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the deaths of 18-year-old Haile Kifer and 17-year-old Nick Brady on Thanksgiving Day 2012. Smith, 65, claims he was defending himself and feared for his life after several break-ins at his home. But prosecutors say he sat in his basement with guns, waiting for the teens to enter his house, then went too far when he continued to shoot them after they were no longer a threat.

You're allowed your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[steve4102]

The problem as I see it is, the First shot killed the boy, any additional shots were NOT Killing Shots of a wounded Man as the prosecution and Media contends. The second shot from the 22 is what killed the girl, any additional shots were also not Killing Shots.

Someone please Ed-u-ma-cate me on this....WHAT THE EFF DOES IT MATTER THAT THERE WERE SHOTS AFTER PERP WAS DEAD?

I'll try, but under the circumstances, I can't guarantee results.

The headline, and first paragraphs from the news:

Little Falls teens were not fatally wounded initially, M.E. testifies

LITTLE FALLS, Minn. -- The two Minnesota cousins killed by a man who claimed he was defending himself after they broke into his home were each shot multiple times, a medical examiner testified Thursday, and while the initial gunshots caused serious injury, they did not immediately kill the teens.

Byron Smith, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the deaths of 18-year-old Haile Kifer and 17-year-old Nick Brady on Thanksgiving Day 2012. Smith, 65, claims he was defending himself and feared for his life after several break-ins at his home. But prosecutors say he sat in his basement with guns, waiting for the teens to enter his house, then went too far when he continued to shoot them after they were no longer a threat.

You're allowed your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Mills testified that all three gunshot wounds would have been fatal, the first immediately fatal. The second and third shots, Mills said, “would have been fatal had Mr. Brady lived long enough.”


http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2014-0 ... sy-reports

Mills said the wounds were not suffered from a close range, but were caused by a high velocity weapon. Mills said she determined after listening to audio recordings of the shooting found in Smith’s basement that the fifth wound examined on Kifer’s body was the first suffered.

Kifer also sustained a grazing gunshot wound to her right hand from a close range fired weapon.

Mills said the most immediately fatal shot would have been the second.

http://brainerddispatch.com/news/2014-0 ... sy-reports

[xd ED]

Mills testified that Kifer had six gunshot wounds, including two to the head at close range. She said the shot that killed Kifer, the fifth fired by Smith, was a close-range shot behind her left ear, striking her brainstem.

"This is a fatal shot," Mills testified. According to the criminal complaint, Smith fired another shot after that, under Kifer's chin, which he called a "finishing shot."

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_25629731/little-falls-teens-autopsy-photos-shown-murder-trial

[texasprowler]

Gunsmith, you are talking about jurors who grew up in a culture where guns are scary and not legal in public, until recently anyway.

[gunsmith]

This whole thing sucks...

So you're saying he 'finished the girl off behind the ear and under the chin'....That's at minimum 2nd degree murder....But....If he's ONLY charged with first degree murder and the jury thinks it's 2nd degree murder....he walks?

If Meshbesher doesn't have multiple experts including retired gray-haired warriors 'who wrote the book' he's not doing his job.

Massad Ayoob does this sort of expert testifying and he knows he is literally saving some innocent guys life.

This defendant doesn't impress me....I'm sure he will not go on the stand but that may be the best way for him to get the jury to see things from his perspective.

I'm still promoting 'THE SALVO DOCTRINE' simply 4 shots = 1 'salvo' I get one 'salvo' per home invader.