Obama Expected to Close Gun Show Loophole by Executive Order

[xd ED]

While I share the fears of the previous two posts, the advanced announcements of advanced announcements smell of a trial balloon. Why they'd run it up the flagpole first, I can't guess.

[goett047]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable. The only way to even attempt it would be some sort of mandatory registry with annual updates (say at tax time) or with some sort of annual firearms license. The latter would be wholly unconstitutional and is not even a concern at this time. As for a registry, logistically I don't see it. Who would collect the information? How do you prove what you do own? At some point there would have to be 4th and even 5th amendment concerns as well.

[MJY65]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable.

Maybe not 100%, but you could certainly spook buyers and sellers by having undercover agents posing as buyers/sellers. No different than drug and prostitution stings. Don't underestimate the resources Democrats would be willing to throw at this.

[jdege]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable. The only way to even attempt it would be some sort of mandatory registry with annual updates (say at tax time) or with some sort of annual firearms license. The latter would be wholly unconstitutional and is not even a concern at this time. As for a registry, logistically I don't see it. Who would collect the information? How do you prove what you do own? At some point there would have to be 4th and even 5th amendment concerns as well.

All you'd need is access to the 4473s.

[goett047]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable.

Maybe not 100%, but you could certainly spook buyers and sellers by having undercover agents posing as buyers/sellers. No different than drug and prostitution stings. Don't underestimate the resources Democrats would be willing to throw at this.

Because drugs and prostitution are virtually nonexistent

[goett047]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable. The only way to even attempt it would be some sort of mandatory registry with annual updates (say at tax time) or with some sort of annual firearms license. The latter would be wholly unconstitutional and is not even a concern at this time. As for a registry, logistically I don't see it. Who would collect the information? How do you prove what you do own? At some point there would have to be 4th and even 5th amendment concerns as well.

All you'd need is access to the 4473s.

What about all of the guns that have been sold second-hand to private buyers

[Erud]

I don't see background checks between private parties as being enforceable.

Maybe not 100%, but you could certainly spook buyers and sellers by having undercover agents posing as buyers/sellers. No different than drug and prostitution stings. Don't underestimate the resources Democrats would be willing to throw at this.

Because drugs and prostitution are virtually nonexistent

A fair point, but while illegal drugs and prostitution are not virtually nonexistent, they are only common among those willing to break the law. If selling firearms is made made illegal and punishable by law, how many law-abiding citizens will continue to do it? Who would they sell to and buy from? How many people would sell a gun to someone they didn't know if there was a possibility that they could be put in jail for it?

[jdege]

All you'd need is access to the 4473s.

What about all of the guns that have been sold second-hand to private buyers

Once you require all legal transfers to go through a licensed dealer, so that they generate a 4473, any new firearm that does not have a clean paper trail through all of its owners will be illegal. And over time, that will be a larger and larger proportion of firearms.

[george]

And those illegal firearms can then be seized, then cut the FFL'S to next to none. Remember when Clinton cut way back, over 50 percent were not renewed, I knew a few of them.
Keep in mind that they are looking at the long run and what they can do.

[goett047]

All you'd need is access to the 4473s.

What about all of the guns that have been sold second-hand to private buyers

Once you require all legal transfers to go through a licensed dealer, so that they generate a 4473, any new firearm that does not have a clean paper trail through all of its owners will be illegal. And over time, that will be a larger and larger proportion of firearms.

But how do you enforce the requirement on private transfers?

[Holland&Holland]

A fair point, but while illegal drugs and prostitution are not virtually nonexistent, they are only common among those willing to break the law. If selling firearms is made made illegal and punishable by law, how many law-abiding citizens will continue to do it? Who would they sell to and buy from? How many people would sell a gun to someone they didn't know if there was a possibility that they could be put in jail for it?[/quote]

How can it be illegal if no law has been passed?

[Ghost]

How can it be illegal if no law has been passed?

Because Obama sayeth so

[Erud]

The point is, whether a law is passed by congress making private sales illegal, or it is unconstitutionally declared illegal by executive order, most people won't do it anymore if they could end up in legal trouble for it.

For the most part, it doesn't even matter if it is enforceable or not. Where would someone find guns to buy for private sale if this happens? That market would pretty much dry up.

[goett047]

The point is, whether a law is passed by congress making private sales illegal, or it is unconstitutionally declared illegal by executive order, most people won't do it anymore if they could end up in legal trouble for it.

For the most part, it doesn't even matter if it is enforceable or not. Where would someone find guns to buy for private sale if this happens? That market would pretty much dry up.

Except for all of the previously unregistered guns. How many guns do you own that have been registered in your name?

[Erud]

The point is, whether a law is passed by congress making private sales illegal, or it is unconstitutionally declared illegal by executive order, most people won't do it anymore if they could end up in legal trouble for it.

For the most part, it doesn't even matter if it is enforceable or not. Where would someone find guns to buy for private sale if this happens? That market would pretty much dry up.

Except for all of the previously unregistered guns. How many guns do you own that have been registered in your name?

I'm not really sure what you want to argue about here. If this goes through, will you be listing your unregistered guns for sale on places like MNGuntalk, like people are able to do pretty freely now? Will you be likely to participate in a transaction as either buyer or seller, with someone you do not know without following the new rules, if there is the possibility of ending up in jail for it? Do you expect there to be more people buying and selling these unregistered guns openly, or fewer? If someone did want to buy or sell an unregistered firearm, do you think it would be easier or harder than it is now?