Trump Is Caving In

[goett047]

Shall not be infringed.

Yes we all know the words of the 2A but guns should not be an unregulated free for all. I really don't care what kind of nostalgia anyone has about guns in their childhood, minors are not responsible or mature enough to be in possession of a gun unsupervised. Should a guy beating his wife have a gun? Someone who is strung out on meth have a gun? Let's be realistic and understand why there are restrictions on who can buy a gun.

If you’re not in jail you should be allowed to own guns. Either you’re free or you aren’t. Either your dangerous or you aren’t. Simple as that. Apply this to every other right. Dangerous people should be locked up, free people should be free. Full-stop, period.

[INOR]

I am not a hard line, gun rights, stand your ground, pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-body kind of guy (which will surprise nobody here). I tend to align with Tronster on this. I think it’s reasonable to have some expectations or hurdles to jump. Call it infringement if you must, but I’ll leave that to courts to decide. I consider it a right but I’m not at all bothered by background checks or the sharing of mental health info with NICS if it could keep guns out of the hands of the psychos that would conduct mass shootings.


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[2in2out]

...
8) Pressure the media to stop making celebrities out of these scumbags. Yea yea I know, good luck with that, they love the ratings.

This one is my pet peeve, because without the media fanning the flames, nobody would be talking about banning anything right now, much less a rifle. They make these attackers famous, they teach other aspiring scumbags how to do the dirty deeds, and they get everyone so wired up that the entire country is chanting the evilest of names.

I keep replaying how much anger there was at the CNN town hall event, and it sickens me. CNN did that, they manipulated every one of those audience members and they knew full well what kind of hatred they were unleashing on live TV.

BUT, those kids, those staff, those members of the audience were already primed, locked and loaded. Not only were they emotionally imbalanced at that time, but those kids have spent their entire lives hearing teachers and liberals spout off about how evil "assault weapons" are, how the NRA has "blood on its hands", how politicians are bought and paid for by gun manufacturers, how gun owners are completely brainwashed idiots and how all guns need to be banned.

Their entire lives!

It makes me very sad, and very disappointed in my fellow human beings when I think about how manipulated and controlled kids in this country have become by the liberal media, teachers, Hollywood and parents who can't lead by example but can only criticize others.

[goett047]

I am not a hard line, gun rights, stand your ground, pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-body kind of guy (which will surprise nobody here). I tend to align with Tronster on this. I think it’s reasonable to have some expectations or hurdles to jump. Call it infringement if you must, but I’ll leave that to courts to decide. I consider it a right but I’m not at all bothered by background checks or the sharing of mental health info with NICS if it could keep guns out of the hands of the psychos that would conduct mass shootings.


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Certainly you would agree then that people with mental-health issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or be on the Internet, perhaps we should search their homes randomly just to be safe.

[Tronster]

I am not a hard line, gun rights, stand your ground, pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-body kind of guy (which will surprise nobody here). I tend to align with Tronster on this. I think it’s reasonable to have some expectations or hurdles to jump. Call it infringement if you must, but I’ll leave that to courts to decide. I consider it a right but I’m not at all bothered by background checks or the sharing of mental health info with NICS if it could keep guns out of the hands of the psychos that would conduct mass shootings.


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Certainly you would agree then that people with mental-health issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or be on the Internet, perhaps we should search their homes randomly just to be safe.

Apples to oranges. There is a schizo lady on youtube from Boston by the name of Lena Kochman. She is convinced the post office, UPS, FedEx and all sorts of random people are all spying on her for the government and goes around video taping herself ranting about this conspiracy or yelling at them to stop stalking her. She thinks celebrities are trying to seduce or enslave her, and the food is tainted with mind control drugs. She keeps changing YT accounts to avoid being 'traced'. Can she cause much harm with a voting booth, not really. Can she kill someone with the internet, doubtful unless she doxxed someone. Could she go off the far deep end and shoot one or more of these "stalkers", absolutely. One video she rambles on about the lengthy times she's stayed in hospital crisis wards because of 'stress', so there is a record of mental health issues for her that should be reported to NICS. But by your plan since she's not locked up she's GTG, right? FFS

[Ghost]

I am not a hard line, gun rights, stand your ground, pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-body kind of guy (which will surprise nobody here). I tend to align with Tronster on this. I think it’s reasonable to have some expectations or hurdles to jump. Call it infringement if you must, but I’ll leave that to courts to decide. I consider it a right but I’m not at all bothered by background checks or the sharing of mental health info with NICS if it could keep guns out of the hands of the psychos that would conduct mass shootings.


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Certainly you would agree then that people with mental-health issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or be on the Internet, perhaps we should search their homes randomly just to be safe.

Apples to oranges. There is a schizo lady on youtube from Boston by the name of Lena Kochman. She is convinced the post office, UPS, FedEx and all sorts of random people are all spying on her for the government and goes around video taping herself ranting about this conspiracy or yelling at them to stop stalking her. She thinks celebrities are trying to seduce or enslave her, and the food is tainted with mind control drugs. She keeps changing YT accounts to avoid being 'traced'. Can she cause much harm with a voting booth, not really. Can she kill someone with the internet, doubtful unless she doxxed someone. Could she go off the far deep end and shoot one or more of these "stalkers", absolutely. One video she rambles on about the lengthy times she's stayed in hospital crisis wards because of 'stress', so there is a record of mental health issues for her that should be reported to NICS. But by your plan since she's not locked up she's GTG, right? FFS

I don’t think that’s enough to disqualify her. Much like the young adult in Florida had nothing that would disqualify him.

[Tronster]

I don’t think that’s enough to disqualify her. Much like the young adult in Florida had nothing that would disqualify him.

So put another way, in the NICS system, depending on the specifics of what is in her mental health record, she may or may not be barred from purchase.
In your no background check free-for-all, there is zero chance of barring her from buying a gun. Fantastic. /s

[Ghost]

I don’t think that’s enough to disqualify her. Much like the young adult in Florida had nothing that would disqualify him.

So put another way, in the NICS system, depending on the specifics of what is in her mental health record, she may or may not be barred from purchase.
In your no background check free-for-all, there is zero chance of barring her from buying a gun. Fantastic. /s

Most people are not adjudicated mentally defective.

Would you prefer a doctor who thinks you may have some issues making that call? Without due process? I wouldn’t.

[goett047]

I don’t think that’s enough to disqualify her. Much like the young adult in Florida had nothing that would disqualify him.

So put another way, in the NICS system, depending on the specifics of what is in her mental health record, she may or may not be barred from purchase.
In your no background check free-for-all, there is zero chance of barring her from buying a gun. Fantastic. /s

What’s stopping her from renting a U-haul and driving it through a playground? Laws don’t stop evil.

[Tronster]

Most people are not adjudicated mentally defective.

Would you prefer a doctor who thinks you may have some issues making that call? Without due process? I wouldn’t.

The 1A defends the 2A, so that you don't end up with doctors en mass suddenly declaring that anyone with ideologies different from the State are unfit to buy a gun.

What’s stopping her from renting a U-haul and driving it through a playground? Laws don’t stop evil.

Nothing is stopping her from killing with a vehicle. That doesn't mean we should make all other destructive methods easy to obtain.
Guns are unique in that they are a compact projectile weapon, giving the attacker an advantage of distance with very effective lethality in a disproportionately small package.
There is little you can do to defend against cars beyond barricades.
Knife attacks require being in close proximity to victims and physical strength/endurance.
Explosives are tightly regulated, so bomb making materials would have to be improvised.
Poison (liquid or gas) would need unique sources and delivery methods.
Arson is slow.
You are correct that laws don't stop evil, but there is no sense in letting evil have it's way easily.

[Erud]

It used to be well-understood in this country that since our rights are not granted to us by the government, the government does not have the power to place restrictions on them. That’s pretty much the core concept that our nation was founded upon. There has never been another country as free as ours is. Some aspects of freedom are dangerous. It’s worth it.

Don’t you guys remember the quote from that old, dead, white guy about trading liberty for security?

[Ghost]

Most people are not adjudicated mentally defective.

Would you prefer a doctor who thinks you may have some issues making that call? Without due process? I wouldn’t.

The 1A defends the 2A, so that you don't end up with doctors en mass suddenly declaring that anyone with ideologies different from the State are unfit to buy a gun.

Fully expected this to go the 14th amendment route. The amendments have been so perverted and deligitimised that they aren’t good references for anything.

[Randygmn]

I guess we'll just disagree about how available guns should be to buy. If an ex-con wants to own guns again they can go through the court channels to have their rights restored, I've known a couple people who have done this. Chicago is a combination of anti-gun laws, a long time ban on pistols or PTC, crushing poverty and a shortage of police officers. Same as any other dense urban city with overly tight gun laws. The ATF would be well served to do away with stupid NFA rules like supressors and SBR's and spend those man hours on dirty gun dealers and thorough NICS reporting.

Of course you left out the most significant problem in Chicago, of which everything else pales in comparison to, is that it’s been under the control of filthy, Liberal Terrorists™️ for a century. I believe it was John Lott who revealed the data last year that 90something percent of all murders in this country take place in just a minuscule amount of zip codes. You’d be closer to being right if someone was to use hyperbole in saying that ALL of our shootings nationwaide came from these zip codes. And yeah, you guessed it, they are almost entirely and exclusively leftist run sewers with an overwhelming majority of African American residents.

Yeah, I’m not surrendering or compromising my rights away because some post-modernist, Neo-Marxists have meticulously created plantations of poverty and violence. Nor am I giving an inch because an impossibly few, very deranged democrats have went on mass murdering shooting rampages. NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN. WITHOUT. A. BLOODY. WAR.

[Randygmn]

I am not a hard line, gun rights, stand your ground, pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-body kind of guy (which will surprise nobody here). I tend to align with Tronster on this. I think it’s reasonable to have some expectations or hurdles to jump. Call it infringement if you must, but I’ll leave that to courts to decide. I consider it a right but I’m not at all bothered by background checks or the sharing of mental health info with NICS if it could keep guns out of the hands of the psychos that would conduct mass shootings.


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Certainly you would agree then that people with mental-health issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or be on the Internet, perhaps we should search their homes randomly just to be safe.

I’d say that mentally ill and illiterate voters pose an exponentially more dangerous threat to our Republic than mass shooters do. I’d sooner allow that voters provide proof in civic proficiency (being able to read is a start, along with a basic understanding of how our specific government works, along with being informed on candidate positions). Remove party affiliation from the ballots. Also require a minimal threshold for income requirements by supplying tax returns. No longer should we allow citizens who contribute nothing by making careers out of fleecing the tax payers, be allowed to vote for those who promise to continue stealing from productive members of society and turning around and handing out free money to these societal leeches.

[BigBlue]

Apples to oranges. There is a schizo lady on youtube from Boston by the name of Lena Kochman. She is convinced the post office, UPS, FedEx and all sorts of random people are all spying on her for the government and goes around video taping herself ranting about this conspiracy or yelling at them to stop stalking her. She thinks celebrities are trying to seduce or enslave her, and the food is tainted with mind control drugs. She keeps changing YT accounts to avoid being 'traced'. Can she cause much harm with a voting booth, not really. Can she kill someone with the internet, doubtful unless she doxxed someone. Could she go off the far deep end and shoot one or more of these "stalkers", absolutely. One video she rambles on about the lengthy times she's stayed in hospital crisis wards because of 'stress', so there is a record of mental health issues for her that should be reported to NICS. But by your plan since she's not locked up she's GTG, right? FFS

Assuming she hasn't been adjudicated mentally incompetent...

The gamble is worth the risk because the alternative of depriving her of her rights based on a subjective opinion is too likely to be abused against those who don't deserve it. Simple as that.

Again, there are no quick solutions with new laws. We have to change society to change how people behave. No more laws that harm law abiding folks more than they prevent violence.