Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby BigBlue on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:17 am

yukonjasper wrote:Sure, but each side thinks the other is responsible for the situation . Hard to get beyond that.


I don't know about that. I think ultimately everyone understands that the psycho who committed the act is the real issue. It's just that one side thinks removing guns will eliminate the issue ("because then the psychos can't do any harm" and taking guns away is easier than fixing the psychos) and the other side knows that to be false.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby yukonjasper on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:37 am

I don't disagree with your view, i am not convinced that you could convince someone that has the opposite view anymore than they would be able to get you to come to their side. The Red Flag laws appear to most, to be a meeting point. The hardcore 2A crowd doesn't like it and neither do the hardcore abolitionists. The idea is rife for abuse. Neither side trusts the other and the concept of a Social Contract is mostly gone, because people don't interpret the situation the same way.
https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/social-contract-theory

This is a pretty good explanation.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Grayskies on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:55 am

I think the other side only knows feelings and talking points, they seem to think people like us are evil, racist, (long list of ists). I believe I am right tho I am willing to listen to reasoned arguments from them, they are not.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Ironbear on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:36 pm

BigBlue wrote:The wrong question is being asked. Instead of wondering how we can identify people who are about to commit horrible crimes we should be seeking ways to fix society so that we don't have people who are on the verge of committing horrible crimes. It's not an easy question and I'm sure there are no easy answers. But the right way to alleviate the issue is by going for the root cause instead of catching folks just before they break.

I've always said that if we could just switch the conversation to the above we'd have near-unamimous support from all sides instead of 50/50 diametrically opposed. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get out of the fight and work together?

I think people are talking about it. The problem is that there is little political advantage in playing up a solution.

Yesterday's BreakPoint made some good points as did the linked articles.
BreakPoint Article

They linked to a LA Times article that, while people here are likely to disagree with the solutions, made some very interesting observations:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data

And another linked article about these shooters being "broken boys".
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/the-desperate-cry-of-americas-boys
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby bstrawse on Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:34 pm

MJY65 wrote:^^^^^^

I don't think we are going to have many politicians willing to oppose RF and UBC. We can either be in on the crafting of the legislation to make it somewhat better or scream "Shall not be infringed" and have it stuffed down our throats. The NRA is wounded right now and is going to be of minimal help.


The entire GOP majority in the MN Senate + 5-6 DFL stood against both in Minnesota - as did the whole GOP minority + 5-6 DFL in the MN House.

It can be done. Applying pressure is critical.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby MJY65 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:46 pm

^^^^^^^^

You guys did a great job in MN and the Senate held firm. I was referring to the US Senate with regard to Trump's proposals.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby yukonjasper on Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Question is, if public opinion, or at least reported public opinion, begins to suggest that RF and UBC are now popular, will we hold those legislators?

Additionally, is anyone developing a plan to "do something " that doesn't include gun related regulations? Are there any general mental health related solutions since, it appears to be universally acknowledged that the recent manifestations of violence have been linked to maladjusted personality.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby BigBlue on Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:44 pm

In my view I see the spectrum of people across the gun control/violence problem like this:

1. Die-hard supporters of gun control that are leading the charge on all fronts. I believe these people are pushing it for the control aspect and not because they really care about the violence. Think Bloomberg and all DFL leadership. They have an agenda.

2. Democrat/liberal/progressive leaning folks that buy into the narrative pushed by #1. They feel awful about the violence and aren't well versed in the gun control issues so they buy the "if there were fewer guns these things just wouldn't happen" argument. They're not really politically active but when someone says "we have to do something" they say "yeah!". They "care so hard" that they have to climb on the wagon and help fix things. So they side with #1. These are the "useful idiots" (not meaning it derogatorily - look up the term).

3. People who don't have any vested interest in the topic and therefore don't get involved. They probably don't own guns or don't care about restrictions because "I have all the guns I want and they won't take my hunting shotgun". So they don't speak up or actively support either side. Lack of a voice is basically approval for gun control.

4. Conservatives or those like many here who understand that the push for gun control is a death spiral that will never end and will continue to have major negative impacts to law-abiding gun owners.

I think that the #3 folks are the ones our side keeps talking about winning over. That's well and good, but I don't think it will ever be enough and with only them on our side the war will continue forever. What we need to do is find something that the #2 folks can get on board with that serves their desires. Find a vector that channels their excess care into a real potential solution to the problem but that doesn't include the ineffective gun control strategies pushed by #1. This is why I say we need to change the conversation from the tool to the person. Without the #2 group solidly on their side the #1 folks will be left in such a minority that they can't do the world any harm.

* Ultimately I'd like all the violent psychos to stop killing people too. I just believe that the tool doesn't make them do it and removing the tool will never remove their desire to cause harm. I'd truly like us to find a solution to fixing them... I'm not just some uncaring gun lover that wants to keep my guns. (*not that I actually have any since that boating accident)

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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Grayskies on Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:28 pm

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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby bstrawse on Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:59 am

yukonjasper wrote:Question is, if public opinion, or at least reported public opinion, begins to suggest that RF and UBC are now popular, will we hold those legislators?

Additionally, is anyone developing a plan to "do something " that doesn't include gun related regulations? Are there any general mental health related solutions since, it appears to be universally acknowledged that the recent manifestations of violence have been linked to maladjusted personality.


Public opinion polls were at 90% in favor of both when we did this during session -- the line can be held.

There is a plan to "do something" being developed that does not involve gun control, this is not a place where that can be discussed before announced.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby yukonjasper on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:08 am

bstrawse wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Question is, if public opinion, or at least reported public opinion, begins to suggest that RF and UBC are now popular, will we hold those legislators?

Additionally, is anyone developing a plan to "do something " that doesn't include gun related regulations? Are there any general mental health related solutions since, it appears to be universally acknowledged that the recent manifestations of violence have been linked to maladjusted personality.


Public opinion polls were at 90% in favor of both when we did this during session -- the line can be held.

There is a plan to "do something" being developed that does not involve gun control, this is not a place where that can be discussed before announced.


Good news, i can respect the need to be guarded.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Jackpine Savage on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:37 am

The big issue with polls on the background check is that they don't explain what it really means, like criminalizing loaning a gun to a friend. And the fact that it is unenforceable, unless every gun is registered.
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Citiot on Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:44 am

Jackpine Savage wrote:The big issue with polls on the background check is that they don't explain what it really means, like criminalizing loaning a gun to a friend. And the fact that it is unenforceable, unless every gun is registered.


Totally correct. Like:

"Do you agree with imprisoning a 95 year old widow if she lends her late husband's wood stock Ruger Mini to her next door neighbor? (who doesn't have any criminal record) YES/NO"
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:07 pm

Jackpine Savage wrote:The big issue with polls on the background check is that they don't explain what it really means, like criminalizing loaning a gun to a friend. And the fact that it is unenforceable, unless every gun is registered.

;) That's a Bingo!
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Re: Trump calls for mental health & gun reforms after shooting

Postby Grayskies on Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:55 pm

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