Stabbing @ Minnesota State Fair

[photogpat]

I carried my little Taurus .327 all day on Thursday @ the Fair. I rode the Park & Ride to the Fair, worked, walked around, ate deep fried goodness...and nothing happened other than getting a little bit sweaty.

AMAZING! /sarcasm

I think people like Joan and ilk believe that since "nothing" ever happens, there's no reason to carry a gun...but when something does happen, its good that no one was carrying a gun...

That kind of logic is like the Yogi Berra AFLAC ad's..."if you're hurt, and miss work, it won't hurt to miss work".

[GunClasses.Net]

I think people like Joan and ilk believe that since "nothing" ever happens, there's no reason to carry a gun...but when something does happen, its good that no one was carrying a gun...

If you're first well-prepared for the likely and traumatic threats (well practiced in hand to hand fighting), why shouldn't you be prepared for the less likely and yet traumatic threats? Cops are... we can be, too. Remember, the odds of you ever needing a gun are pretty slim - but if you ever need one, you're going to need it REAL bad. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

From our facebook page:

If we really wanted to stop people from behaving badly, we would first try regulating those who commit those atrocious acts. In that regard, we advocate "criminal free society". No, we do not think people should be background checked or body scanned to enter, say, the state fair - however, rather, ALL of society be a criminal free zone. Releasing violent offenders because our prisons are packed with non-violent offenders makes no sense whatsoever, and only creates a society full of, well - experienced criminals. When you do that, it matters little whether a law attempts to regulate some of the various tools they choose to use.

That note about the 'various tools' was actually posted minutes prior to us learning there was a stabbing last night in that gun-free zone. Crystal clear, right? When, oh when, will the rest of the world arrive at this simple clarity?

[xd ED]

Note that the article in question is nine years old. I'd recommend checking with David before proceeding - particularly because he's mostly retired at this point...

b

Thanks.
I didn't check the date when I posted the article, even though it is quite apparent.
I only saw the article a week or so back wen it was referenced in a similar discussion.

[Humphrey Bogart]

With respect to police, fire, EMT.

WE are the 'first responders'

The colorado police chief was proud of the fact that his department had a 2 minute response time

(which on a technical analysis is very good)

...just in time to put up the yellow hazard tape.

[GunClasses.Net]

With respect to police, fire, EMT.

WE are the 'first responders'

The colorado police chief was proud of the fact that his department had a 2 minute response time

(which on a technical analysis is very good)

...just in time to put up the yellow hazard tape.

When seconds count, they're only minutes away?

[bstrawse]

With respect to police, fire, EMT.

WE are the 'first responders'

The colorado police chief was proud of the fact that his department had a 2 minute response time

(which on a technical analysis is very good)

...just in time to put up the yellow hazard tape.

I don't at all take issue with your assertion that the citizens are the first responders. I believe strongly that we are.

That said, Aurora PD, Fire, and EMS did a fabulous job responding to the shooting situation. They did a lot more than just put up yellow hazard tape.
b

[Humphrey Bogart]

With respect to police, fire, EMT.

WE are the 'first responders'

The colorado police chief was proud of the fact that his department had a 2 minute response time

(which on a technical analysis is very good)

...just in time to put up the yellow hazard tape.

I don't at all take issue with your assertion that the citizens are the first responders. I believe strongly that we are.

That said, Aurora PD, Fire, and EMS did a fabulous job responding to the shooting situation. They did a lot more than just put up yellow hazard tape.
b

Someone knows the details on this but I think in 9 out of 10 of these active shooter incidents....the show is COMPLETELY over when law enforcement shows up.

Just heard on 'Armed American Radio' w/ Mark Walters last night....something about the high murder rates in Chicago and Washington DC.....the thugs KNOW they are the only ones with weapons.

[GunClasses.Net]

With respect to police, fire, EMT.

WE are the 'first responders'

The colorado police chief was proud of the fact that his department had a 2 minute response time

(which on a technical analysis is very good)

...just in time to put up the yellow hazard tape.

I don't at all take issue with your assertion that the citizens are the first responders. I believe strongly that we are.

That said, Aurora PD, Fire, and EMS did a fabulous job responding to the shooting situation. They did a lot more than just put up yellow hazard tape.
b

Agreed. Plus, think about the likelihood of any of us being present at 'the event', right as it happens. We are MORE likely to be nearby, or be there after it, than in the thick of it during it. If WE are first responders, how much do we know about CPR or First Aid? NO EMS will ever be allowed into a dangerous situation. This means that those in the Colorado theatre with no, or minor, injuries SAT THERE A WHILE among the seriously injured, waiting for police to come and secure the scene for EMS to get in there. We carry guns partly to save others - to respond to the 30-90 second nightmare we might be trapped in. BUT, as one of potentially hundreds of bystanders, do you know how to help injured people in the critical live-or-die minutes afterward? Can you dress your own wounds? Can you keep yourself from going into shock?

Because one of our main objectives is probably to keep people from dying, AND since we are more likely to be near a shooting or come upon it after the fact, then shouldn't we all should have prioritized First Aid/CPR training ABOVE the firearm? Just think about the likelihood of us needing that training versus having that window of opportunity to be in the right place at the right time to use our firearm! Think about all the car accidents or work accidents or your neighbor falling off a ladder. While I heartily advocate firearms training and firearms carry, I don't know anyone personally who's needed to shoot someone, but we all know people who've been injured, so we can safely say, most likely to save lives, we'd be best prepared to have that training, right? Once we have the training we're most likely to need, we can get training and equip ourselves to meet less likely needs.

I just know I'd rather be able to keep someone alive until EMS gets there, than merely hold their hands and tell them "they're coming, try to hold on"... If I got training to know what to do, that help's already THERE. Get SOME kind of emergency medical training. Check out http://revivemedical.net, for example.

[Snakeman721]

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/20_zdechlikm_statefairguns/

The article is worth reading, if only for Atty David Gross's comments.


Minnesota State Fair Director Jerry Hammer says it makes no more sense to allow guns at the fair than it does to allow archers to shoot arrows on the midway.

"It's just common sense. I don't know that I can really elaborate much more on that," says Hammer. "There's not a large fair in the country, or theme park, that allows weapons. It's common sense."

Hammer says there are simply too many people around the fairgrounds to allow weapons. He says the Minnesota State Fair is a safe place, leaving no need for people to protect themselves.

Ooops!

Maybe it wasn't a stabbing, merely an injury caused by a blade-on-a-stick

Anybody remember when they DID allow guns at the fairgrounds? It was the early 70's and I happily plunked my dollar or two down for the opportunity to fire off 15-18 rounds of .22 shorts from a Remington Model 552 Speedmaster at the moving steel targets at the REAL shooting gallery that was VERY near the Big Slide! Oh the horror that those evil guns were so near CHILDREN. As I recall, NO ONE EVER got hurt from the shooting gallery, not even the operators. Which thinking back, were dang near in the line of fire standing off to the side on the wrong side of the muzzle. The rifles were chained down to the counter so you could ONLY shoot straight ahead and maybe 30 degrees to either side. Yep, the good old days....they took that gallery out of there by the late 70's I'm not even sure they still have the air powered BB machine guns on the Midway anymore (shoot out the red star for a prize).

[Dill]

just goes to show you that you can never let your guard down, even at the great minnesota eat-together.

[Dante]

just goes to show you that you can never let your guard down, even at the great minnesota sweat-together.

There, I fixed it for ya!

[Dill]

that too!

[GunClasses.Net]

With all the focus on semiautos and high capacity magazines in the news, here's a completely hypothetical for you...

What would your reaction be if you saw someone in jeans and a shirt browsing booths with an AR15 Pistol -- or, better yet, how about a collapsable-stocked AR15, AK47, or Remington 870 -- at the fair, slung over his shoulder? I realize that MN law says we cannot carry rifles/shotguns in public, and some people would say "oh that's ridiculous!". But, it is NOT a question of practicality; it is a question of principle. Do we have a Constitutional Right to keep and bear any arms, or just pistols? (our founders could have written it "keep and bear pistols", but did not).

Or, think of it in this context. Can I Constitutionally bear (carry) a Ruger Mini-14 through Mall of America? What about into a college classroom as a student? (Again, HYPOTHETICAL ... Not looking for a reason to do that, by any means!)

Thoughts...?

[mrp]

I realize that MN law says we cannot carry rifles/shotguns in public

Which statute says that? There's this:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7181&year=2011

624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.
Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.

But that statute does not apply to permit holders:

(b) "Carry" does not include:
...
(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714;

[bstrawse]

MN 624.7184 allows a permit holder to carry a rifle or shotgun in public. I'd ask who your instructor was, but....