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Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:39 am
by silvor
Erud wrote:
Markemp wrote:Seems reasonable to me. If the restraining order ends or the person goes to trial and is found not guilty, they can get their guns back. But if you're considered an active risk by the courts, losing access to your guns seems like a pretty smart call.

Getting a restraining order approved isn't a matter of just filling out a form on someone. There is a well established process.


Unless things have changed substantially in the 10 years or so since a buddy of mine went through an ugly divorce, I think it actually is a matter of just filling out a form on someone. His now ex-wife would go to the courthouse and fill out the form, he'd get served with the paperwork by a deputy within 24 hours, and the temporary order was in effect until the court date. He'd go to court, the ex wouldn't even show up, and it would get tossed out. Then she'd do it again shortly thereafter. That doesn't seem all that reasonable to me. You have an awful lot of faith in the government.


Super EASY to get. My friend got one in Ramsey county when they were (amicably) getting divorced. No issues. No violence. She just “said she was scared”. Why did she file? To put him on his heels in the divorce proceedings.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 5:47 pm
by Holland&Holland
The OP knows that. He be trolling

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:01 pm
by Grayskies
These days I take no prisoners when it comes to trolls.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:17 pm
by jdege
I think Dave Kopel clearly expressed our concerns.

David B. Kopel testifies at the hearing, "Red Flag Laws: Examining Guidelines for State Action," at the US Senate Committee on the Judiciary

United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary

His list of what must be present to avoid due process issues:

Such orders can be legitimate when fair procedures accurately identify dangerous individuals. Such laws include the following features:

  • Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.
  • Ex parte hearings only when there is proof of necessity.
  • Proof by clear and convincing evidence, which has been corroborated.
  • Guarantees of all due process rights, including cross-examination and right to counsel.
  • Court-appointed counsel if the respondent so wishes.
  • A civil remedy for victims of false and malicious petitions.
  • Safe and orderly procedures for relinquishment of firearms.
  • Strict controls on no-knock raids.
  • Storage of relinquished firearms by responsible third parties.
  • Prompt restoration of concealed carry permits for the falsely accused.
  • Prompt return of firearms upon the termination of an order.
  • Renewal of orders based on presentation of clear and convincing proof.
  • Not allowing time-limited orders to be bootstrapped into lifetime federal prohibition.

The above features can be found in some state laws, as will be detailed below.

But the laws being pushed by Everytown lacks these due process protections, because the primary purpose of the law is to enable due process violations.
In 2018, the Conference of Chief Justices asked the Uniform Law Commission (ULC) to draft a model red flag law. The ULC convened a Study Committee representing a wide range of perspectives, such as the National Sheriffs Association, International Association of Chiefs of Police, psychiatric experts, state courts, pro-gun and anti-advocates, pro-gun and anti-gun state legislators, and others. I was a member of the ULC Study Committee. The Committee overwhelmingly voted to recommend that the ULC move forward with drafting a model law. Support for a model law came from across the political spectrum, including all the state legislators, law enforcement, and the courts. Overt opposition to the model law was expressed only by the Giffords Law Center, which preferred that legislators use only Giffords/Bloomberg model, and not the more careful and balanced approach that would likely be produced by the Uniform Law Commission. Perhaps as a result of lobbying from Giffords and Bloomberg, the Uniform Law Commissioners later voted not to draft a model law.

Why did Bloomberg object to the ULC drafting a model law that would satisfy due process concerns?

Because they wanted a law that enabled due process abuses.

And that's what we're getting.
About a third of gun confiscation orders are wrongly issued against innocent people.

Any procedure that allows a judge to hear only one side of a case necessarily will produce a high error rate. Data from the two states with the oldest confiscation laws so demonstrate. In Connecticut, confiscation orders may be issued ex parte. Later, the respondent will have an opportunity to tell his or her side of the story in court. In Connecticut, once a judge eventually hears the respondent’s side of the story, 32 percent of confiscation orders are overturned.1 A study in Marion, County, Indiana, reported similar results. As will be detailed below, Connecticut’s 32 percent reported error rate is likely an underestimate, since government officials pressure respondents not to retain counsel and contest orders.

Error rates for newer laws based on the Giffords/Bloomberg model, are likely to be even higher. Connecticut requires that a petition must be filed by two law enforcement officers, and they must have conducted an independent investigation. Indiana requires that petitions be filed by law enforcement. The Giffords/Bloomberg system, though, allows petitions to be filed by a very wide variety of people, including ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends. The Giffords/Bloomberg system has no requirement for corroboration of any evidence. Indeed, for Colorado’s HB 19-1177, which will soon become law, legislators removed a requirement that evidence be “corroborated.”

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:44 pm
by Holland&Holland
Yup, infringers be infringing.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:00 pm
by Jackpine Savage
Washington Gun Law talks about the case. 10 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwc-WVd5HZc


Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 2:14 pm
by farmerj
Markemp wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1185371815/supreme-court-domestic-abuse-guns

The U.S. Supreme Court on Friday agreed to hear a case that could allow people who are found to pose a credible threat of violence against their partner or child to retain the right to own and use guns. At issue is a 1994 amendment to the Federal Firearms Act that prohibits those who are actively subject to domestic violence restraining orders from possessing firearms.

The case focuses on Zackey Rahimi, a man living in Arlington, Texas, who agreed to a protective order in February 2020 after allegedly assaulting his ex-girlfriend. While the order expressly prohibited Rahimi from possessing a firearm, he was involved in five shootings in and around the city of Arlington between December 2020 and January 2021. After police officers found firearms at his home, Rahimi pled guilty to violating the Federal Firearms Act.


So what's the general temperature here? Should a convicted wife beater who has been deemed an active risk by the courts have their guns taken away?

Personally I feel like this is a hard yes. Not everyone should be allowed to own a gun, and this seems like a really easy line to draw. This is a reasonable gun safety regulation.


I think you can go suck a bag of dicks.

Men are not the only one’s capable of domestic abuse and violence.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 2:18 pm
by farmerj
silvor wrote:
Erud wrote:
Markemp wrote:Seems reasonable to me. If the restraining order ends or the person goes to trial and is found not guilty, they can get their guns back. But if you're considered an active risk by the courts, losing access to your guns seems like a pretty smart call.

Getting a restraining order approved isn't a matter of just filling out a form on someone. There is a well established process.


Unless things have changed substantially in the 10 years or so since a buddy of mine went through an ugly divorce, I think it actually is a matter of just filling out a form on someone. His now ex-wife would go to the courthouse and fill out the form, he'd get served with the paperwork by a deputy within 24 hours, and the temporary order was in effect until the court date. He'd go to court, the ex wouldn't even show up, and it would get tossed out. Then she'd do it again shortly thereafter. That doesn't seem all that reasonable to me. You have an awful lot of faith in the government.


Super EASY to get. My friend got one in Ramsey county when they were (amicably) getting divorced. No issues. No violence. She just “said she was scared”. Why did she file? To put him on his heels in the divorce proceedings.



Actually, she wouldn’t have to show up, the county advocate and county attorney will and advocate and the ex parte order becomes fully in force for 24 months.

All a woman has to do is simply state, “I’m afraid…” and nothing more. The male has “caused fear.” Which is sufficient. No contact with female party and no contact with any children.

The courts have now been weaponized Against the man for the rest of the civil proceedings for the up coming dissolution. Minnesota will not call it divorce.

A woman can put a man in the hospital with serious injuries and would not be granted to the male.

BTDTGTFT….

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 5:05 pm
by bstrawse
farmerj wrote:
Markemp wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1185371815/supreme-court-domestic-abuse-guns

The U.S. Supreme Court on Friday agreed to hear a case that could allow people who are found to pose a credible threat of violence against their partner or child to retain the right to own and use guns. At issue is a 1994 amendment to the Federal Firearms Act that prohibits those who are actively subject to domestic violence restraining orders from possessing firearms.

The case focuses on Zackey Rahimi, a man living in Arlington, Texas, who agreed to a protective order in February 2020 after allegedly assaulting his ex-girlfriend. While the order expressly prohibited Rahimi from possessing a firearm, he was involved in five shootings in and around the city of Arlington between December 2020 and January 2021. After police officers found firearms at his home, Rahimi pled guilty to violating the Federal Firearms Act.


So what's the general temperature here? Should a convicted wife beater who has been deemed an active risk by the courts have their guns taken away?

Personally I feel like this is a hard yes. Not everyone should be allowed to own a gun, and this seems like a really easy line to draw. This is a reasonable gun safety regulation.


I think you can go suck a bag of dicks.

Men are not the only one’s capable of domestic abuse and violence.


Let's be polite here.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 5:06 pm
by farmerj
You know me well enough that is polite.

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:34 am
by Lumpy
farmerj wrote:All a woman has to do is simply state, “I’m afraid…” and nothing more.

What if she's afraid of black men on the street? Can she get a restraining order against them too?

Re: Supreme Court to consider whether wifebeaters can own guns

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:46 am
by farmerj
Lumpy wrote:
farmerj wrote:All a woman has to do is simply state, “I’m afraid…” and nothing more.

What if she's afraid of black men on the street? Can she get a restraining order against them too?



Need to first understand what an “order for protection” is first. Then you need to have a better grasp of VAWA.

Then you’ll look at it all and say ,”holy **** balls….”.