Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby Snowgun on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:56 pm

ktech wrote:
Snowgun wrote:...there is NO reason to ever shoot with one hand unless you are either physically impaired, or it is physically impossible to put the gun on target with two hands.


I don't think you understood tman's comment - this is a common stress reaction, and is not an intentional tactic. Many people involved in shootings simply default to using their dominant hand alone, even those who have trained only using 2 handed techniques.


yea, I thought that might be the case, but all that means is that one hasn't REALLY been trained very well in two handed techniques. :)
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby ktech on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:58 pm

Snowgun wrote:yea, I thought that might be the case, but all that means is that one hasn't REALLY been trained very well in two handed techniques. :)


So what you're saying is, the last gunfight you were in, you were able to remember to use both hands because you've trained so well? :P
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby tman on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:16 pm

Like I said, I need to practice more one-handed shooting, in case, in spite of my extensive, 22 years of on-going police training, my brain says, "tman?"

"Yes, Oh wise brain of mine?"

"The **** has hit the fan, and you will be shooting one-handed today. Ready - or not - here it comes!"
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby usnret on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:27 pm

Has anyone noticed how quiet mayor anti-gun has been since it was his boys that did the mass shooting?
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby rtk on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:33 pm

usnret wrote:Has anyone noticed how quiet mayor anti-gun has been since it was his boys that did the mass shooting?



I was thinking the same thing.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby Grayskies on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:34 pm

Maybe the victim's lawyers are gathering?
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby jshuberg on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:19 pm

ktech wrote:So what you're saying is, the last gunfight you were in, you were able to remember to use both hands because you've trained so well? :P

If you have to remember or think, you're already screwed.

People have a tendency of using their dominant hand under stress because that's how we've trained ourselves to hold things. A pen, a knife, a fork, unless the object is large or heavy enough to require the use of two hands, people default to using one. Using a firearm two handed is not a natural activity, and it takes training to program the subconscious to operate the weapon correctly.

Whether LEO or civilian, a person who carries a firearm should train as often as their finances and schedule allow. You want to train to the point that all aspects of weapon manipulation become second nature, and can be performed entirely by the subconscious mind. The same way you can drive a car without having to put any thinking into it. If the situation ever goes bad enough that you have to use your weapon, you want all of your attention on the bad guys and your surroundings. If you have to think about or focus on your gun at all to use it effectively, you're more likely to make tragic mistakes.

I don't want to second guess the cops, but it's pretty apparent from the video that they hadn't trained enough to operate their weapons properly, and they had very little situational awareness - both in their position and the positions of bystanders relative to the target. It's likely that with the necessary training that the number of bystanders who were injured would have been reduced. Their lack of proper training is most likely the fault of their agency, what with budget cuts and all.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby Heffay on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:40 pm

jshuberg wrote:I don't want to second guess the cops, but it's pretty apparent from the video that they hadn't trained enough to operate their weapons properly


:roll:

Spoken like a true operator.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby goalie on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:44 pm

tman wrote:
I can thankfully say I've never been in a gunfight like that, and can't tell you why they might have missed.


I wish I could say that. Unfortunately, I still wish that, in my first one, I was as awesome as all the dudes on MGT.

:roll:
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby jshuberg on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:49 pm

Heffay wrote:
jshuberg wrote:I don't want to second guess the cops, but it's pretty apparent from the video that they hadn't trained enough to operate their weapons properly


:roll:

Spoken like a true operator.

Are you disagreeing with me, or just being a smart-ass?
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby Heffay on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:50 pm

jshuberg wrote:
Heffay wrote:
jshuberg wrote:I don't want to second guess the cops, but it's pretty apparent from the video that they hadn't trained enough to operate their weapons properly


:roll:

Spoken like a true operator.

Are you disagreeing with me, or just being a smart-ass?


Very much disagreeing with you. You seem to think training trumps all. As if it's possible to train enough that your first firefight will result in you operating perfectly.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby goalie on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:00 pm

Snowgun wrote:
yea, I thought that might be the case, but all that means is that one hasn't REALLY been trained very well in two handed techniques. :)


:roll:

You should start training the military. Last time I checked, less than 100% of people perform exactly how they were "trained" in their first firefight. It sounds like you could fix that deficiency and help the US to field a much more effective fighting force.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby jshuberg on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:03 pm

Heffay wrote:Very much disagreeing with you. You seem to think training trumps all. As if it's possible to train enough that your first firefight will result in you operating perfectly.

You'll never do anything perfectly. However, the more training a person has, the better the odds he'll react well. This isn't my opinion, it's the opinion of law enforcement and military organizations throughout history. They have consistently shown that the better and more frequent the training, the better their personnel perform.

On Killing - Lt. Colonel David Grossman wrote:You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to your level of training.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby usnret on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:04 pm

usnret wrote:Has anyone noticed how quiet mayor anti-gun has been since it was his boys that did the mass shooting?


In fact I haven't heard anything from the usual gun grabbers screaming for more gun control.
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Re: Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

Postby Heffay on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:03 pm

jshuberg wrote:
Heffay wrote:Very much disagreeing with you. You seem to think training trumps all. As if it's possible to train enough that your first firefight will result in you operating perfectly.

You'll never do anything perfectly. However, the more training a person has, the better the odds he'll react well. This isn't my opinion, it's the opinion of law enforcement and military organizations throughout history. They have consistently shown that the better and more frequent the training, the better their personnel perform.


That's fantastic. I would like to know how you can tell they haven't had enough training based on the video.

(You could always say "I'm sorry, you're right, I have no idea whether they had adequate training or not. It was an awful situation for them to be in, and I hope everyone involved recovers fully from this horrible incident.")
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