Officers shoot and kill man in his home during raid

[ijosef]

This happened in our own backyards, just north of Menomonie, WI. A guy was shot and killed in his own home during the serving of a "no knock" warrant.

http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/Offi ... 18131.html

So, apparently there was a "confrontation" that led to the man's death. The cops that did the killing are on paid administrative leave right now, and the preliminary investigation "doesn't indicate any wrongdoing".

[Nougat]

I don't like this. why at 1:45 am ? how is that better, is the victim more likely to do something punishable by death? what else makes it better to go in at 1:45? why not Justin Bieber instead I'm sure he had more drugs in his house than this guy ever did.

[BigDog58]

It's amazing to me that more LEO's haven't been shot during one of their "No Knock" warrants. If the people are truly that bad, why not just stake out their home and wait until they leave and arrest them outside the home where the likelihood of an armed confrontation is much more unlikely. They then have the ability to simply go search the home while the perp sits in the back of the cruiser handcuffed.

The militarization of local LEO is getting far or of hand. The only time they should be needed is in the case of someone barricading themselves or possibly in a hostage situation. A simple drug charge does not constitute a need to go Busting doors down, armed to the teeth with automatic weapons and battle armor on. I can't imagine them raiding my home in a similar situation. Hearing that kind of racket upstairs, both myself and my wife would come at them fully armed and ready too deal with the situation, not knowing it was law enforcement. It's simply a setup for disaster.

[tman]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

[bensdad]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

We're not. We're surprised when good people like yourself don't see how this no-knock, sWAT team crap has almost no place in the United States. But I guess we'll have to wait for evidence of a widespread pattern.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

[xd ED]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

We're not. We're surprised when good people like yourself don't see how this no-knock, sWAT team crap has almost no place in the United States. But I guess we'll have to wait for evidence of a widespread pattern.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

That's my thought as well.

tman,
What reaction would you expect from the good guy at 1906 W Main St when the bad guy lives at 1906 E Main St?
What do you expect most LEOs first responces would be to the front door coming off the hinges, and a brick through a window into living room of their homes?

There are valid reasons to invade the house/ home/ property when an immeediate danger to life pre-exists, But when these raids are justified by using the element of surprise to secure evidence, they too often create bigger problems than they resolve.

[brad3579]

I am afraid that we are going to start seeing more of this. It gets really scary when you think about a No-Knock getting served on the wrong house.

Well, it appears that Mr McGee was justified in killing the NO-Knock deputy, because the Grand Jury refused to indict.
http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/Man- ... vice=phone
What is this going to do to the LEO community? Think twice before serving bogus No-Knock warrants, or shoot first and ask questions later?

[PhilaBOR]

Had a visit from the cops a few years ago. They knocked, well actually more like pounded. I answered, the 6 ft+ 250 lb+ cop started asking questions while the female cop went in to talk to my wife (yes, I gave permission). After a few questions of me that didn't make sense and I didn't have the right name, they called in and it was wrong address.
They left w/o an apology.
I was carrying concealed, legally, they didn't make me. They were amped because domestic. If it went sideways it could have gotten ugly.

So wrong address and amped cops but it wasn't no knock and it wasn't 0-dark-30.

[Erud]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

No offense tman, but expecting an objective point of view from you on police matters is about equivalent to expecting an objective point of view from Obama on Obamacare.


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[mrp]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

No offense tman, but expecting an objective point of view from you on police matters is about equivalent to expecting an objective point of view from Obama on Obamacare.

I've always found his comments to be worth the read, and I appreciate his posts. Of course you consider the source, but he has knowledge and experience and insight that I don't.

[xd ED]

Why are you so surprised when bad people fight?

No offense tman, but expecting an objective point of view from you on police matters is about equivalent to expecting an objective point of view from Obama on Obamacare.

I've always found his comments to be worth the read, and I appreciate his posts. Of course you consider the source, but he has knowledge and experience and insight that I don't.

^^^^THIS^^^

[bensdad]

No offense tman, but expecting an objective point of view from you on police matters is about equivalent to expecting an objective point of view from Obama on Obamacare.

Offense taken on his behalf. I'm sure I've read hundreds of his posts. While we've never met (that I recall) he strikes me as highly intelligent, reasonable and objective on any subject - regardless of subject matter... That's why he's got me perplexed wrt no-knock. This hillbilly could have been hooked up by two cops at mid-day outside the local barbershop (or Denny's, or his garden, or... any-damn-where). The ONLY reason for a middle of the night kick-in is to justify the existence of a multi-county tactical team. THEY WERE NOT NEEDED. A MAN IS DEAD. In another thread, A COP IS DEAD. At the link I porvided, MANY ARE DEAD.

Visualizing people, settings, things, etc. is something I've never been able to NOT do when I read. My image of tman is a traditional, service-oriented cop who went into this line of work for all the right reasons. My fear is that if we could magically MMPI every cop today (especially those who take on high-risk roles) we'd find issues piled high and deep. My limited experience tells me that the wrong folks are going into law enforcement. That, coupled with trends toward "latest and greatest" gear, as well as "staffing like the other guys"* will lead to the increased militarization of LE. The gulf between LE and "us" is ever-widening. I grew up knowing I could trust a cop. I've carefully taught my kids that they can't. They know that in the event of an emergency where they need an adult, ANYONE who is clearly working (in work clothes, wearing a nametag, behind a counter, etc.) is their first choice.

* By this I mean that if BLoomington gets a tac squad, then Burnsville gets one the year after... then Lakeville, then Dakota Co., then Farmington, then Bloomington gets a special urban assault vehicle, so Burnsville needs one, etc. etc. etc.

[OldmanFCSA]

These No-Knock Entries are just Live Fire Training Sessions for when they come to get our guns.

I ask ALL, ALL who keep a gun close by for home protection, ALL Instructors for Concealed Carry/Open Carry, ALL who intend to defend their home and family from Home Invasions, HOW ARE WE TO KNOW THAT THE POLICE ARE COMING THROUGH THE DOOR? Or that it is the drug crazed idiot just release from rehab needing cash for a fix? Or a rapist after your Wife or Daughter?

There has to be a better way.

And although I respect T-man, he has just lost some of it !!!

[Erud]

No offense tman, but expecting an objective point of view from you on police matters is about equivalent to expecting an objective point of view from Obama on Obamacare.

Offense taken on his behalf. I'm sure I've read hundreds of his posts. While we've never met (that I recall) he strikes me as highly intelligent, reasonable and objective on any subject - regardless of subject matter... That's why he's got me perplexed wrt no-knock. This hillbilly could have been hooked up by two cops at mid-day outside the local barbershop (or Denny's, or his garden, or... any-damn-where). The ONLY reason for a middle of the night kick-in is to justify the existence of a multi-county tactical team. THEY WERE NOT NEEDED. A MAN IS DEAD. In another thread, A COP IS DEAD. At the link I porvided, MANY ARE DEAD.

Visualizing people, settings, things, etc. is something I've never been able to NOT do when I read. My image of tman is a traditional, service-oriented cop who went into this line of work for all the right reasons. My fear is that if we could magically MMPI every cop today (especially those who take on high-risk roles) we'd find issues piled high and deep. My limited experience tells me that the wrong folks are going into law enforcement. That, coupled with trends toward "latest and greatest" gear, as well as "staffing like the other guys"* will lead to the increased militarization of LE. The gulf between LE and "us" is ever-widening. I grew up knowing I could trust a cop. I've carefully taught my kids that they can't. They know that in the event of an emergency where they need an adult, ANYONE who is clearly working (in work clothes, wearing a nametag, behind a counter, etc.) is their first choice.

* By this I mean that if BLoomington gets a tac squad, then Burnsville gets one the year after... then Lakeville, then Dakota Co., then Farmington, then Bloomington gets a special urban assault vehicle, so Burnsville needs one, etc. etc. etc.

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that when law enforcement topics come up on the forum, I can accurately predict what side of the issue tman will come down on before I even read the reply, from no-knock warrants, to the shooting of 2 people with a knife, to 15 cops at justin beiber's house for an egg-throwing complaint . I know and have known lots of cops. I have friends that are cops. I have cousins that are cops. To a man, their opinions on topics like these are often very different from mine and those of others I know. This is not really surprising, I suspect that if there were a topic started about the behavior of Bensdad's kids, your take would not be the most objective. Just too close to the action.

You and I are probably around the same age. I also grew up with the idea of trusting the police, but I taught my kids that they shouldn't.


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[ijosef]

Also, it seems as if the system is stacked against the homeowner. I'm sure we all remember this case from 2007: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/12/18 ... ong-house/
The police conducted a SWAT raid on the wrong house in Minneapolis. The father, whose wife and six kids were home, fired a shotgun at the police, fully believing he and his family were the victims of a home invasion (which, in reality, they were). Fortunately, no one was killed (or even hit by gunfire). Now imagine this scenario - the cops return fire and Mr. Lee or one of his family members gets killed. Do you think that anyone on the SWAT team would be criminally charged, or even fired from their job as a police officer? Okay, let's turn it around. Imagine Mr. Lee shot and killed a cop, fully believing it was a thug in the midst of a home invasion. Do you think he would be cleared after a thorough internal investigation, or do you think they'd try to charge him with murder?