Northfield man possession of a machine gun

[Lumpy]

Since MN bans individuals owning full-autos, I take it that there's a narrow loophole for dealers/manufacturers?

[Holland&Holland]

Since MN bans individuals owning full-autos, I take it that there's a narrow loophole for dealers/manufacturers?

Incorrect to your first segment as their are certain items that can be privately owned and yes to your second because their are situations where they are allowed. Someone will come along and post the statute I am sure.

[Squib Joe]

C&R machine guns AKA "The really expensive ones" can be owned without a manufacturing license in Minnesota

[Holland&Holland]

C&R machine guns AKA "The really expensive ones" can be owned without a manufacturing license in Minnesota

Joe, out of curiosity, and if you do not want to answer feel free to ignore. I have always assumed that the full autos for rent at Bill's all fall under the C&R designation. Is this correct? I never looked into the C&R list as I know my pocket book is not in that league. Or do you guys get to use one of the other permitted uses listed?

[jshuberg]

Loopholes are unintentional gaps in the law that were never meant to exist, but that certain people have discovered and exploit. There is no loophole regarding machine guns. Not at this point anyway. It's extremely unlikely, but a loophole may open up where trusts could legally manufacture post-86 machine guns without a license because of an interesting lawsuit thats currently in the works, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Class II manufacturers and class III dealers are allowed to maintain an inventory of machine guns. It's actually more restrictive for dealers, they need a "law letter" before BATFE will approve a transfer to them. However, a class II can manufacture and stockpile machine guns in contemplation of future sales:

7.5.1 Manufacture of machineguns for sale to government agencies or as “sales samples”.
Notwithstanding the prohibition in Section 922(o), qualified manufacturers may manufacture machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 for sale to Federal and State agencies or to FFLs/SOTs as “sales samples” for demonstration to prospective governmental customers. The weapons may be manufactured and stockpiled in contemplation of future sales, but their registration and subsequent transfer are conditioned upon and restricted to sales only to government agencies or as sales samples. See Chapter 9 for a discussion of the required documentation supporting these sales. See also Section 7.6.1 on the manufacture of machineguns by contractors of FFLs/SOTs.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58221/download

MN does not ban machine guns from private ownership either, but merely restricts them:

persons possessing machine guns or short-barreled shotguns which, although designed as weapons, have been determined by the superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or the superintendent's delegate by reason of the date of manufacture, value, design or other characteristics to be primarily collector's items, relics, museum pieces or objects of curiosity, ornaments or keepsakes, and are not likely to be used as weapons;

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.67

This exception was passed by the legislature in 1978. However, the BCA refused to recognize any machine gun as meeting the definition of 609.67 Subd. 3(3) until Roger Beach got on the case and forced the adoption of an administrative rule in 1983 to correct BCA's overreach. The result was that BCA was required to recognize any weapon BATFE recognizes as a C&R as meeting the statutory definition of 609.67 Subd. 3(3).

Approved machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun. "Approved machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun" means a machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun that, although designed as a weapon, has been determined by the superintendent as not likely to be used as a weapon and that has been determined by the superintendent to appear on the National Firearms Act Curios and Relics List, as provided by United States Code, title 18, chapter 44, and as issued by the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (Washington, D.C.).

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7500.5100

The result of this rule is that any machine gun that was manufactured more than 50 years prior to the transfer date, or otherwise explicitly on the federal C&R list is legal to own in MN without having to be an FFL. You do have to comply with all of the other NFA and BCA requirements however. You also have to make sure that the weapon is readily restorable to it's C&R configuration. In other words, you need to remain in possession of all of the original parts that constitute the "original configuration" of the weapon for it to remain a C&R. Non-permanent configuration changes, such as putting a different upper on a registered lower are fine, just no cutting/welding/drilling etc. BATFE does want to know by letter if you change the configuration of a registered NFA weapon so they can update the registry in case it's reported stolen, etc.

C&R machine guns are slightly more costly than other pre-86 transferrable machine guns, but not extremely so. ~20 years from now, every transferrable machine gun will potentially qualify as a C&R, so the prohibition (and cost difference) becomes less meaningful as every year passes. If you could find an AR15 auto-sear that is documented to have been manufactured and registered prior to 1966 (50 years ago), it would qualify under the statutory exception in 609.67 Subd. 3(3), as interpreted by rule 7500.5100, and you could install it in any firearm that it will fit in. For example, a Sig MPX uses an AR15 trigger group. If you owned a pre-1966 registered auto-sear you could install it in a Sig MPX (with the other necessary parts), and have yourself a nice little modern 9mm closed-bolt submachine gun that is perfectly legal under both Federal and MN law without needing an FFL license

However, transferable machine guns, whether C&R or not are extremely expensive. If a person lived in a city where zoning does not prohibit home based firearms businesses, and also allows for light manufacturing (or where a variance can be obtained), with a little research, paperwork, and an interview, a person could be issued an FFL07/SOTII manufacturing license from BATFE for their home, garage, or any other building. The people I know who have done this actually got a separate mailing address for their garage, since BATFE can inspect the address listed as the business premises. Getting a separate address for your garage (even an attached garage), and listing the garage address as the business address prevents nosey BATFE inspections from spilling over into the rest of your house. With this license, a person could legally manufacture new machine guns, or otherwise legally convert semi-auto firearms to full-auto, in compliance with federal law and BATFE regulations, in contemplation of future sales. Unfortunately for me, I live in Minneapolis and have no other property that would qualify, so this is a no-go for me until I decide to move.

The guy in question here was a gunsmith living in Northfield. He could almost certainly have got an FFL07/SOTII from his home or garage address. He could and should have gone about making his machine gun legally. He may have simply wanted something "off the books". If this is true, he's going to pay the consequences for it.

So anyways, that's the 10,000 foot view of machine gun legalities in MN. Consult with the BATFE, BCA, or a lawyer specializing in the NFA if you decide to venture into this area, you don't want to end up being like the guy who was indicted!

[Deputyhiro]

The talk of having law enforcement show up over the perceived sound of automatic gunfire has me a little bit confused. I own a slide fire for one of my ARs. On a few occasions I have let 'er rip out in my back yard with the guys. I have a pretty nifty shooting range, so weekend shoots aren't out of the ordinary. A few friends have questioned whether the sound of a 30rnd mag dump would trigger a visit from a deputy. I thought, no way. How is that probable cause for a crime? Once they see the slide fire, is that the end of it? How far could that go? All because of a perceived noise by a "concerned neighbor. Full disclosure: Police have never showed up for this, and all a slide fire is good for is wasting ammo.

[jshuberg]

I'd guess it's a matter of who and where. I've shot full auto in friends backyard ranges, never heard a peep from law enforcement.

A slide-fire stock is a legal gray area in MN. It's not beyond reason that a person could be arrested and charged with unlawful possession of a trigger activator. It's also not beyond reason that a person could be found guilty as well, depending on how the case plays out. The question is, does a slide-fire stock fall within the definition of a Trigger Activator:

"Trigger activator" means a removable manual or power driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that, when attached to a firearm, the rate at which the trigger may be pulled increases and the rate of fire of the firearm increases to that of a machine gun.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.67

A slide fire stock could very reasonably be construed to be a removable manual device that functions to increase the rate at which the trigger may be pulled to increase the rate of fire of the firearm to that of a machine gun. The only real question is does the device itself have to activate the trigger directly for the statute to apply, or does it simply need to allow a persons finger to activate the trigger at the speed of a machine gun? It's not explicitly defined, so only a court can answer that question. I have advised my friends not to buy these things, and not to be a test case, unless it's determined by the courts to be legal. It's just too much of a legal risk in my mind. If anyone has told you that they're absolutely legal here in MN, even a lawyer, they're just guessing, and blowing smoke up your a$$.

Normal bump firing doesn't require a device to be attached to the firearm. Neither does a belt loop, or most of the other "tricks" people use to bump fire a rifle, so these forms of bump firing would obviously not fall within the definition of a trigger activator. However, a slide fire stock is attached to the firearm, and is designed to allow a machine gun rate of fire to be achieved through easier bump firing. I would say that using one definitely puts a person at risk of arrest, if not also conviction. They may eventually be found to be perfectly legal, but it could also go the other way too.

Note that BATFE has determined that a slide fire stock is legal under federal law. That's why they can be sold here in the US, but the definition of a trigger activator under MN law is what is in question. Given that the penalty is up to 5 years in prison and a $10,000 fine, plus becoming a prohibited person and not being able to ever own firearms again, it's just too rich for my blood.

Just my $0.02

[Squib Joe]

C&R machine guns AKA "The really expensive ones" can be owned without a manufacturing license in Minnesota

Joe, out of curiosity, and if you do not want to answer feel free to ignore. I have always assumed that the full autos for rent at Bill's all fall under the C&R designation. Is this correct? I never looked into the C&R list as I know my pocket book is not in that league. Or do you guys get to use one of the other permitted uses listed?

Actually no, just about every NFA gun used for demonstration purposes by shooting ranges are going to "post-86 dealer sample" guns. Nobody wants to run thousands of rounds through a 25K original Tommy Gun and risk wearing it out. We either manufacture our firearms or purchase them - which requires a FFL, SOT, and sometimes a law letter requesting a demo.

As far as C&R full-auto firearms go, here are some rough estimates of what you can expect to pay depending on condition:

Reising M-50 ~4,000-5,000

1950 Madsen ~5,000-7,000

S&W 76 ~8,000-9,000

M2 Carbine ~9,000-11,000

M3 Grease Gun ~15,000-18,000

German MP-40 ~17,000-20,000

1928 Thompson ~20,000-25,000

1918 BAR ~40,000-45,000

M60 ~55,000-60,000

[shooter115]

The talk of having law enforcement show up over the perceived sound of automatic gunfire has me a little bit confused. I own a slide fire for one of my ARs. On a few occasions I have let 'er rip out in my back yard with the guys. I have a pretty nifty shooting range, so weekend shoots aren't out of the ordinary. A few friends have questioned whether the sound of a 30rnd mag dump would trigger a visit from a deputy. I thought, no way. How is that probable cause for a crime? Once they see the slide fire, is that the end of it? How far could that go? All because of a perceived noise by a "concerned neighbor. Full disclosure: Police have never showed up for this, and all a slide fire is good for is wasting ammo.

For the record, I have been on the range shooting with members of our law enforcement community when some nosy ass, busybody called in to dispatch to report full auto gunfire. So yes, it can happen.

[usnret]

Most slide fire stocks don't get the firearm up to the firing rate of a machine gun. It's the last line of the statute.

They were going after the devices that actually attached to the firearm and activated the trigger like the "Hellfire" and other hand crank devices that mated to the triggers.

[igofast]

A few friends have questioned whether the sound of a 30rnd mag dump would trigger a visit from a deputy. I thought, no way. How is that probable cause for a crime? Once they see the slide fire, is that the end of it? How far could that go? All because of a perceived noise by a "concerned neighbor. Full disclosure: Police have never showed up for this, and all a slide fire is good for is wasting ammo.

I was chatting with the president of a range I belong to. They had the police called for someone shooting full-auto last year. Police showed up, shooter showed it was a slide-fire, and police were on their way. YMMV, but don't be surprised if someone comes a knockin'.

[jshuberg]

Quite often the intent of the law and the application of the law can be quite different. Again, only the courts can definitively answer the question as to whether they're legal or not.


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[Deputyhiro]

Quite often the intent of the law and the application of the law can be quite different. Again, only the courts can definitively answer the question as to whether they're legal or not.


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And by that time you have spent a **** ton of money on lawyers.
I only have a couple neighbors, and the worst thing they do is "trespass" on my range to shoot with me.

[Ironbear]

So much depends on the "neighbor". I know one family that have a "neighbor" that does it as a form of harassment. The moment they start shooting, the sheriff's department gets a call. This family now has a policy of calling the sheriff's office preemptively, and informing them when they will be shooting and that they should be expecting a phone call... The deputies appreciate the heads-up, since they can properly prioritize the incident...

[mrp]

Update:

http://www.southernminn.com/northfield_ ... 3e7ab.html

The federal machine gun charge a Northfield man is facing came after he sold a fully-automatic Uzi to a confidential informant, according to a search warrant filed in Rice County.