More Schools Arm School Staff

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More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby jdege on Fri May 18, 2018 9:02 pm

More Schools Arm School Staff
https://slowfacts.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/more-schools-arm-school-staff/
School districts in three more states announced that they would arm school staff. I wrote about this trend here in April and here in March. The map keeps changing as more and more districts adopt a policy to allow some of their teachers and staff to go armed on campus. That is significant given the legal and cultural biases at work against them. Arming teachers is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the many actions we’ve taken to make our schools safer. I’ve also seen a cultural change take place. This is a change in how we protect our students as well as what we do.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Ghost on Sat May 19, 2018 5:16 am

Good
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Bearcatrp on Sat May 19, 2018 6:46 am

Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Ghost on Sat May 19, 2018 7:09 am

Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.

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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Holland&Holland on Sat May 19, 2018 7:09 am

Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.


So you feel you should have a gun but not a teacher?
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby yukonjasper on Sat May 19, 2018 7:52 am

Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.

I disagree. The deterrent effect is there whether the armed teacher is a certified ninja operator or not. I would venture a guess that 90%+ of people who carry every day are not seeking situational force on force training or special tactical training. Whether it's a resource officer or teacher, I want an armed response locked and loaded on site. If you want metal detectors, controlled access points etc.- all the better. #1 priority is interdiction of the mentally unstable individuals as soon as possible. Obviously the individuals carrying have to have aptitude for carrying and I would hope the Districts would offer credit and time to attend active shooter training.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Sorcerer on Sat May 19, 2018 8:27 am

Not to be the Debby downer but..... I get the idea of controlling access. But creating choke points the with the idea of “ locking” a threat into that area seams like a bad idea. Thinking of Las Vagas shooting and the choke points to escape. As has been pointed out there still needs to be other means to stop a shooter beyond just at an entering point. We all know that a shooter may have a plan B as in an helper inside opening a door or window.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby yukonjasper on Sat May 19, 2018 8:43 am

You can't send kids to a prison everyday. We also have to remember, although a big story when it happens, as a percentage of the schools in the country, those which are attacked is a tiny fraction. The reaction to"do something " is strong but we can't loose site of the reality of the stats. Reasonable efforts should be made without having to rebuild every school in America. On site armed response as a deterrent should be the least expensive. The District would have to shoulder the burden of increases insurance coverage, which would be the first concern of an armed District employee. That is why those who raise their hands should be willing to be trained or employ retired or active duty police with the same sort of immunity in certain situations.
For the same reasons a Permit Holder would hesitate to intervene in an altercation, it would be reasonable for an unprotected District employee to have the same concerns.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby jdege on Sat May 19, 2018 9:03 am

yukonjasper wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.

I disagree. The deterrent effect is there whether the armed teacher is a certified ninja operator or not.

Exactly.

It's a lot harder planning an attack against a bunch of half-trained idiots each doing whatever they might think best in the moment than against a group of well-trained professionals.

I remember something a Soviet officer was once quoted as saying, back during the Cold War - "the difficulty in training to fight against American doctrine is that US soldiers never read their doctrine and feel no obligation to follow it."

Having some unknown number of teachers and staff, with some unknown degree of training, who might or might not be carrying who knows what on any particular day has a greater deterrent effect on random violence than does a known security officer. You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby xd ED on Sat May 19, 2018 9:59 am

jdege wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.

I disagree. The deterrent effect is there whether the armed teacher is a certified ninja operator or not.

Exactly.

It's a lot harder planning an attack against a bunch of half-trained idiots each doing whatever they might think best in the moment than against a group of well-trained professionals.

I remember something a Soviet officer was once quoted as saying, back during the Cold War - "the difficulty in training to fight against American doctrine is that US soldiers never read their doctrine and feel no obligation to follow it."

Having some unknown number of teachers and staff, with some unknown degree of training, who might or might not be carrying who knows what on any particular day has a greater deterrent effect on random violence than does a known security officer. You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns.


"...You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns..."

That is pretty much what Dr John Lott's research has determined as to how the perpetrators of mass shootings pick their targets.
The uniformed security officer is a known threat/ target.
an unknown number of armed staff is a deterrent.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Ghost on Sat May 19, 2018 10:58 am

jdege wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:Unless these teachers are well trained, I think it’s a bad idea. Until these schools get better built in protection such as bullet proof windows and doors, either actual police officers or professional armed security companies posted in each school, at least 3 per school.

I disagree. The deterrent effect is there whether the armed teacher is a certified ninja operator or not.

Exactly.

It's a lot harder planning an attack against a bunch of half-trained idiots each doing whatever they might think best in the moment than against a group of well-trained professionals.

I remember something a Soviet officer was once quoted as saying, back during the Cold War - "the difficulty in training to fight against American doctrine is that US soldiers never read their doctrine and feel no obligation to follow it."

Having some unknown number of teachers and staff, with some unknown degree of training, who might or might not be carrying who knows what on any particular day has a greater deterrent effect on random violence than does a known security officer. You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns.

Well said
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Bearcatrp on Sat May 19, 2018 11:58 am

Ok, arm teachers. What happens when they kill a student by accident trying to shoot the intruder? Immunity? That guy in the video is lucky that discharged round didn’t kill or wound one of those kids. Also, will these armed teachers get extra pay for adding to there duties?
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby Ghost on Sat May 19, 2018 12:22 pm

Bearcatrp wrote:Ok, arm teachers. What happens when they kill a student by accident trying to shoot the intruder? Immunity? That guy in the video is lucky that discharged round didn’t kill or wound one of those kids. Also, will these armed teachers get extra pay for adding to there duties?

What if you kill an innocent bystander while trying to defend yourself from an attacker?

Do the unarmed teachers families get extra pay when the teacher is killed trying to stop the shooter with no tools?

How about when they are shot in the back while huddling around the children trying to protect them with the only tool they have available?

How can someone who has a permit think others aren't qualified to protect themselves?

We can play the what if game all day long but the reality is these teachers are capable of protecting themselves and their students if they so choose.
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby hammAR on Sat May 19, 2018 1:48 pm

"...You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns..."

That is pretty much what Dr John Lott's research has determined as to how the perpetrators of mass shootings pick their targets.
The uniformed security officer is a known threat/ target.
an unknown number of armed staff is a deterrent.


The Santa Fe school had two armed police officers and had trained extensively in active shooter protocols, so it wasn't a situation where "good guys with guns" can solve the problem.
LINK
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Re: More Schools Arm School Staff

Postby jdege on Sat May 19, 2018 4:06 pm

hammAR wrote:
"...You can plan to deal with the security officer. You can't plan against random yahoos running around with guns..."

That is pretty much what Dr John Lott's research has determined as to how the perpetrators of mass shootings pick their targets.
The uniformed security officer is a known threat/ target.
an unknown number of armed staff is a deterrent.


The Santa Fe school had two armed police officers and had trained extensively in active shooter protocols, so it wasn't a situation where "good guys with guns" can solve the problem.
LINK

A good guy with a gun two minutes away...
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