Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby xd ED on Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:44 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:
TSKNIGHT wrote:
Sorcerer wrote:My understanding was that the warrant was for evidence not a person but MPD had had a violent interaction with the apartment lease holder in a previous in counter.


So they guarantee another violent encounter by doing a no-knock raid. Makes sense.

As opposed to knocking on the door of someone who will be shooting back?

^^^THIS^^
There are no perfect plans; either corner the bad guy in an apartment, or risk a shoot out/ high speed chase through downtown MPLS.
The individual being sought apparently has a long history of violent felonies, and was known to make threats to the Police at most interactions.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Erud on Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:37 am

The main problem I have with that argument is that the guy the police were looking for was not even there. If a bunch of dudes come into my house while I’m asleep and start shouting and kicking furniture, I’m likely to reach for a weapon. So are you. If it’s the cops serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong house, I’m likely to end up dead for it. If the police serve a no-knock warrant and the person they are looking for is not there, someone made a serious error. Someone made a serious error last week and a guy got killed for no legitimate reason. My position on government agents entering someone’s home or business automatically defaults to this:

“Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.“
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Jackpine Savage on Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:46 am

Erud wrote:“Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.“


But was it his house, or a murderer's house?

It's a tragic situation, but pretty much the whole metro area is a tragic situation. If you hang out with murderers, bad things can happen.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Erud on Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:54 am

Jackpine Savage wrote:
Erud wrote:“Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.“


But was it his house, or a murderer's house?

It's a tragic situation, but pretty much the whole metro area is a tragic situation. If you hang out with murderers, bad things can happen.


Fair question, and I don’t know the answer. Apparently the officers involved didn’t know the answer either, and it wasn’t a rhetorical question for them. I am looking at this incident from the broader perspective that something similar could potentially happen to me, or anyone else. Is it reasonable for government agents to forcibly enter someone’s home looking for a person who doesn’t live at that home, when that person isn’t even there? The fact that he wasn’t there when they served the warrant is a pretty important detail that points to some grave miscalculations. The likelihood of things going horribly wrong in that situation is very high. How many botched no-knock warrant stories have you read about? In general, I support the police as much as anyone, but our God-given rights are far more valuable than their ability to catch criminals in a particular way. Sure bad things can happen if you hang out with murderers, but equally bad things can happen if you are unfortunate enough to mistakenly get caught up in a no-knock warrant.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Lumpy on Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:50 am

It isn't always a mistaken address or resident either. Sometimes an informant under pressure to produce results will pull an address out of his a** and tell the police it's where a big stash is stored.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Grayskies on Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:51 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
TSKNIGHT wrote:
Sorcerer wrote:My understanding was that the warrant was for evidence not a person but MPD had had a violent interaction with the apartment lease holder in a previous in counter.


So they guarantee another violent encounter by doing a no-knock raid. Makes sense.

As opposed to knocking on the door of someone who will be shooting back?

Using a crystal ball much?
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby TSKNIGHT on Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:17 am

[/quote]Using a crystal ball much?[/quote]

Nope, don't have one of them. I don't have the answers. Lord knows I wish I did.
I've worked with LE/Private Security for 40 years and have no illusions about the dangers they face on a daily basis.

The trouble is that we are looking at it from the outside with only a small portion of the where/what/why of the operation.
The only thing we know for sure is that an innocent guy paid the ultimate price due to decisions made by MPD.
We may never know the whole truth.

I can very easily imagine this same situation happening in my own home. Someone kicks in my door shouting and pointing weapons at me would most likely be met with a firearm in my hand.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Jackpine Savage on Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:19 am

Erud wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:
Erud wrote:“Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.“


But was it his house, or a murderer's house?

It's a tragic situation, but pretty much the whole metro area is a tragic situation. If you hang out with murderers, bad things can happen.


Fair question, and I don’t know the answer. Apparently the officers involved didn’t know the answer either, and it wasn’t a rhetorical question for them. I am looking at this incident from the broader perspective that something similar could potentially happen to me, or anyone else. Is it reasonable for government agents to forcibly enter someone’s home looking for a person who doesn’t live at that home, when that person isn’t even there? The fact that he wasn’t there when they served the warrant is a pretty important detail that points to some grave miscalculations. The likelihood of things going horribly wrong in that situation is very high. How many botched no-knock warrant stories have you read about? In general, I support the police as much as anyone, but our God-given rights are far more valuable than their ability to catch criminals in a particular way. Sure bad things can happen if you hang out with murderers, but equally bad things can happen if you are unfortunate enough to mistakenly get caught up in a no-knock warrant.


I do share your concerns about no knocks. But in this case I don't know enough to determine if it was justified or not.

Early in the thread I raised the question wondering if there was a problem with the address. In a later post it seems that it might be the case. Was this related to gang activity? Was Amir affiliated with a gang?
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Grayskies on Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:26 am

TSKNIGHT wrote:
Using a crystal ball much?


Nope, don't have one of them. I don't have the answers. Lord knows I wish I did.
I've worked with LE/Private Security for 40 years and have no illusions about the dangers they face on a daily basis.

The trouble is that we are looking at it from the outside with only a small portion of the where/what/why of the operation.
The only thing we know for sure is that an innocent guy paid the ultimate price due to decisions made by MPD.
We may never know the whole truth.

I can very easily imagine this same situation happening in my own home. Someone kicks in my door shouting and pointing weapons at me would most likely be met with a firearm in my hand.

I was responding to H&H.

The problem is the no knock. Unfortunatly, besides the victumes family the officer that shot that guy will pay too.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:18 pm

Grayskies wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
TSKNIGHT wrote:As opposed to knocking on the door of someone who will be shooting back?

Using a crystal ball much?

Same one you have ;)
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Erud on Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:28 pm

Grayskies wrote:The problem is the no knock. Unfortunatly, besides the victumes family the officer that shot that guy will pay too.


Yep. No winners in this story, everyone involved lost.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby xd ED on Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:33 pm

Almost a side note at this point:

Amir Locke’s cousin charged in St. Paul homicide investigation that led to Minneapolis police shooting - TwinCities.com

...Police said Tuesday they took Speed into custody in the Jan. 10 fatal shooting of Otis R. Elder, 38. Elder was found lying in the street in the 500 block of North Prior Avenue, between University Avenue and Interstate 94, in St. Paul. The charges allege Elder was shot during a robbery or attempted robbery....
...The search warrants that police obtained were for three apartments in Bolero Flats at 1117 Marquette Ave. One was the unit where Speed resided with his mother, and another was for an apartment where a friend of Speed’s was associated; the three were not there during the searches.

Another search warrant was for Speed’s brother’s girlfriend’s apartment, for which Speed also had a key, according to the petition. Speed’s brother, his girlfriend and Locke were present when police entered to search at 6:48 a.m. on Feb. 2....


First I've read of other occupants in the apartment where the shooting took place.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby TSKNIGHT on Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:38 pm

xd ED wrote:Almost a side note at this point:

Amir Locke’s cousin charged in St. Paul homicide investigation that led to Minneapolis police shooting - TwinCities.com

...Police said Tuesday they took Speed into custody in the Jan. 10 fatal shooting of Otis R. Elder, 38. Elder was found lying in the street in the 500 block of North Prior Avenue, between University Avenue and Interstate 94, in St. Paul. The charges allege Elder was shot during a robbery or attempted robbery....
...The search warrants that police obtained were for three apartments in Bolero Flats at 1117 Marquette Ave. One was the unit where Speed resided with his mother, and another was for an apartment where a friend of Speed’s was associated; the three were not there during the searches.

Another search warrant was for Speed’s brother’s girlfriend’s apartment, for which Speed also had a key, according to the petition. Speed’s brother, his girlfriend and Locke were present when police entered to search at 6:48 a.m. on Feb. 2....


First I've read of other occupants in the apartment where the shooting took place.


Confirmation of my thoughts on this being a fishing expedition. LE had no idea if their suspect was at any one of the apartments. They were hoping to get lucky.
Definitely have a problem with the search warrants being allowed at all in this instance, No-knock or not.
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:58 pm

Jackpine Savage wrote:
Erud wrote:“Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.“


But was it his house, or a murderer's house?

It's a tragic situation, but pretty much the whole metro area is a tragic situation. If you hang out with murderers, bad things can happen.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes ;)
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Re: Minneapolis police shooting - here we go again

Postby Jackpine Savage on Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:07 am

TSKNIGHT wrote:
Confirmation of my thoughts on this being a fishing expedition. LE had no idea if their suspect was at any one of the apartments. They were hoping to get lucky.
Definitely have a problem with the search warrants being allowed at all in this instance, No-knock or not.


I think I'm starting to understand why the metro is what it is. Trying to get a murderer off the street is considered a fishing expedition.
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