Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

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Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby daleamn on Mon Mar 04, 2024 5:34 pm

Well the legislature is thinking about a lead ban and some are complaining it will raise the cost for high school trap shooters to the point where some will not be able to afford the sport.

The bill, HF 3813/SF 3792, was introduced by eight members of the state House and two members of the state Senate.
One of those sponsors, state senator Jen McEwen, (DFL (surprise, surprise) District 8) issued a statement implying that students who participate in shooting sports are in danger of lead poisoning.


Here's some links to the stories:

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firea ... mpetitions

https://news.yahoo.com/lead-ammo-ban-mn ... SVENRRlhM2
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby xd ED on Mon Mar 04, 2024 5:36 pm

daleamn wrote:Well the legislature is thinking about a lead ban and some are complaining it will raise the cost for high school trap shooters to the point where some will not be able to afford the sport.

The bill, HF 3813/SF 3792, was introduced by eight members of the state House and two members of the state Senate.
One of those sponsors, state senator Jen McEwen, (DFL (surprise, surprise) District 8) issued a statement implying that students who participate in shooting sports are in danger of lead poisoning.


Here's some links to the stories:

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firea ... mpetitions

https://news.yahoo.com/lead-ammo-ban-mn ... SVENRRlhM2


One wonders(not really), Sen Jen has some bloodwork results of students who participate in the sport to reinforce her concerns...
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Markemp on Mon Mar 04, 2024 7:10 pm

Why not use steel shot? As long as everyone is using the same rounds, it's still a fair competition.

Doctors are pretty unanimous on the science showing no amount of lead is safe for children.


It's funny that they mention the cost of changing to use alternative shells, but they don't mention the cost of lead exposure to the kids. Honestly this is one of the dumbest things to oppose. :roll:

Are they protesting about the cost of helmets for high school football?
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:25 am

Markemp wrote:Why not use steel shot? As long as everyone is using the same rounds, it's still a fair competition.

Doctors are pretty unanimous on the science showing no amount of lead is safe for children.


It's funny that they mention the cost of changing to use alternative shells, but they don't mention the cost of lead exposure to the kids. Honestly this is one of the dumbest things to oppose. :roll:

Are they protesting about the cost of helmets for high school football?

Honestly this is the dumbest thing to support, unless one is against private gun ownership in this country.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:29 am

Cost is only one factor. Availability of ammo and the distribution that this would cause would kill this as a high school sport, but then again, those pushing for this know that already.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:00 am

Another example of government over regulation of a problem that doesn't exist.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Jackpine Savage on Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:25 am

If they really cared about children you would think that they would first ban backyard pools.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:55 pm

Jackpine Savage wrote:If they really cared about children you would think that they would first ban backyard pools.

Or I dunno, maybe fund gun safety in schools?
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby xd ED on Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:08 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:If they really cared about children you would think that they would first ban backyard pools.

Or I dunno, maybe fund gun safety in schools?


What's to be funded?

Open up a classroom, and step back as a thousand certified volunteer instructors take over...
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby crbutler on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:11 pm

Markemp wrote:Why not use steel shot? As long as everyone is using the same rounds, it's still a fair competition.

Doctors are pretty unanimous on the science showing no amount of lead is safe for children.


It's funny that they mention the cost of changing to use alternative shells, but they don't mention the cost of lead exposure to the kids. Honestly this is one of the dumbest things to oppose. :roll:

Are they protesting about the cost of helmets for high school football?


If you want to discuss lead exposure and lead shot’s role in it, I’m game.

First off, the shot is a nonissue as far as exposure to gunfire.

Priming compounds are a bit of a different matter.

Metallic lead is insoluble. Put a bullet in your body and you don’t develop lead poisoning, even though a 5 grain piece of shot is well past the fatal level in your blood stream.

The whole argument against lead shot is an environmental one.

I’ve loaded and shot clay birds with steel.

At short distances, it’s actually more effective due to hardness and improved patterning. However, it rapidly degrades as you get further out there. Put a clay target on the ground and shoot it at varying distances… you get holes in the pigeon from lead at 70 yards with#8 shot. Steel #8 bounces at about 45 yards, assuming target loads.

Note that Trap handicaps you by distance. Standard is like 16 yards to the trap house, so you are usually breaking them 30 yards out. Doesn’t give you much reaction time before it’s out of effective range. Start at the 27 yard line and it’s less. Then try Olympic rules with low gun mount and about 35% less pellets… along with a faster bird.

Waterfowl hunting went steel when I was in junior high. My first 2 seasons I used lead, then went to steel. Steel is more prone to crippling due to energy transfer issues, and poor patterning due to having to go to markedly higher velocities and a larger shot size to retain impact energy.

BTW, if getting rid of lead was going to stop lead poisoning of birds and improve numbers, why is my hunting (same place all my life) not getting better? There are nowhere near the bird numbers there were 30-40 years ago locally.

If the changing to lead actually was a safety issue, then you might get some traction.

BTW, there have been more deaths and injury related to scholastic soccer than to HS trap. Talk about banning soccer before you start legislating on safety issues re trap shooting.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Markemp on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:29 pm

Is steel the only alternative?
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:33 pm

xd ED wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:If they really cared about children you would think that they would first ban backyard pools.

Or I dunno, maybe fund gun safety in schools?


What's to be funded?

Open up a classroom, and step back as a thousand certified volunteer instructors take over...

I stand corrected, I should have said allowed.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:34 pm

Markemp wrote:Is steel the only alternative?

At a price point that is at all viable.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby crbutler on Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:29 pm

Hunting wise there are bismuth shot, tungsten/iron, tungsten polymer matrix, tungsten, copper, tin, and bronze all which have passed USFWS muster.

Lead then steel at commercial rates, although steel at bulk can be cheaper than lead; then bismuth; then copper (although I haven’t seen copper shot in years); bronze is used in some African bullet applications…; then tungsten iron (hevishot); matrix (used to be sold by federal and Kent, but I’m not sure if it still is); then tungsten (TSS). Theoretically gold would be an ideal choice except for cost.
Lead is variable- $35-50 per 25# - shipping, antimony content, and plating all change cost.
Steel is around $20/10#
Bismuth is like $100/7#
Hevishot is about $40/#
TSS is over $50/#.

The wads are about 5x more expensive between steel shot safe and lead wads.

Tungsten is very labor intensive to load.
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Re: Minnesota Lead Ban and High School Trap

Postby daleamn on Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:01 pm

Alpha News weighs in on the topic:
https://alphanews.org/shooting-league-c ... dont-like/

“Youth clay target shooting sports in Minnesota is not a public health issue,” said John Nelson, president for USA Clay Target League, an Eagan-based nonprofit that works with the Minnesota State High School League.
“By specifically targeting youth shooting sports, it becomes clear that this is an attack on a school-approved activity that they don’t like,”


Jen McEwen, a lawyer in her second term in the state Senate, responded to Nelson’s criticism.
“I support keeping our kids safe as they take part in shooting sports, which is why I am dedicated to furthering legislative solutions to address this dire public and environmental health concern,” McEwen said. “I look forward to continued collaboration with stakeholders to transition towards using non-toxic alternatives that are safe and affordable.”


Note: this dire public and environmental health concern

I think she loses credibility with this rhetoric. So far, I haven't heard anyone bring up a study that shooting lead shot outdoors is a health problem for the shooter. Anybody know of such a study?
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