Registering an NFA weapon [inc Suppressors] via trust

View · by **BC98** on Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:12 pm

You can e-File your Form 1 with a trust, potentially saving yourself several months of waiting. Plus you can put other trustees (like family members) on the trust who can legally possess and use your SBR(s). Dealing with transfer of the weapons in the event of your passing is also handled via the language of the Trust, as well.

View · by **benny** on Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:50 pm

Can an person inter into a trust with another who already has a NFA sub gun registered to him on form 4 ? Would we need a third party as well? The NFA is already a form 4 and has been tax stamped.

Benny

View · by **jshuberg** on Sun May 24, 2015 6:01 pm

Bump since a lot of people are asking these kinds of questions.

View · by **whiteox** on Mon May 25, 2015 1:02 pm

I am Ben Rust and I have to thank Jshuberg for the recommendation. I truly appreciate it.

I came here to see if there was anything to add to Jshuberg's information and happily, he got it right.

A trust is almost certainly the best way to own NFA firearms. If you own an NFA firearm as an individual, and you allow someone else to possess it outside of your presence that is technically a felony carrying a ten year prison sentence and a hefty fine. If anybody else has access to the safe that you store the NFA firearm in, that is technically constructive possession. I have heard debate about the likelihood of prosecution for such a violation, but for the cost of a trust, the benefit of not having to worry about it is more than worth it in my opinion.

I invite everyone to take a look at my website http://www.minnesotaguntrustlawyer.com and if you have any questions, please email or call me. While I wold be happy to to sell you a $1,000+ Gold level trust, my primary concern is making sure that you're doing things properly. If a $99 Bronze trust will meet your needs and keep you out of trouble, I'll tell you so.

Lastly, while I love this site and I'm grateful for all the information I've gleaned on here over the years, I just don't have time to keep up with private messages I receive here so please contact me at:

ben@rust-law.com

or

612-269-8819

View · by **LarryP** on Tue May 26, 2015 11:22 am

I'll probably get one or two silencers. I can't see needing a trust for that. Guess I'll play the waiting game & see what happens

View · by **yuppiejr** on Tue May 26, 2015 1:57 pm

LarryP wrote:I'll probably get one or two silencers. I can't see needing a trust for that. Guess I'll play the waiting game & see what happens

I don't think there's an economy of scale in play here... it really makes sense to set up a trust if you plan to own any NFA items, but if you like sitting around waiting it sounds like the added fingerprint/photo/CLEO requirement are right up your alley.

View · by **BC98** on Tue May 26, 2015 2:10 pm

LarryP wrote:I'll probably get one or two silencers. I can't see needing a trust for that. Guess I'll play the waiting game & see what happens

I got a trust for ONE SBR. To me it was worth it. Now, I'm just ahead of the game for suppressors.

View · by **Bessy** on Tue May 26, 2015 3:14 pm

With regards too "section 4f - the overall length of the weapon. If the stock folds, this measurement is unfolded. If the stock collapses, this is the most collapsed position."

I was told by a lawyer who specializes in NFA trusts, that the length, is always from folded or most collapsed position. That was how I recently filed a form 1 for my uzi. Although that could be argued to have a collapsable stock rather than a folding stock, as the stock is still useable in the "folded position". I think more clarification is needed here.

View · by **jshuberg** on Tue May 26, 2015 3:28 pm

That was based on my conversation with BATFE several years ago, and they may have changed the requirement. I was told that they wanted to know the shortest length the weapon could be in with the stock deployed.

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View · by **Ironbear** on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:40 am

jshuberg wrote:Your trust is only valid in the state it was created in.

Does this mean, if you create a trust in one state, then move to another state; that you would need to create a new trust, and transfer all NFA items to the new trust, at $200 per?

View · by **jshuberg** on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:32 pm

No. You don't have have to do that, you can bring a suppressor into any state where they are legal, no problem. Other NFA items require an approved form 5320.20 to cross state lines.

What you can't do is create a trust in a state you don't reside in for the purposes of registering NFA items.

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View · by **tletourneau** on Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:44 pm

But can you be a member of a trust setup in another state and still receive the advantages of the trust?

Sent from my phone.

View · by **jshuberg** on Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:57 pm

Some of these questions are getting into details about trusts that are approaching lawyer-land. If I answer them, I would be practicing law without a license. So I don't want to go there.... Basically, an NFA trust works like any other trust, and should contain specific wording to handle the legal complexities of owning NFA weapons.

People shouldn't simply be looking at a trust as something that helps them get their stamp, but also something that will keep you out of prison if unexpected things happen in your life, as well as the primary purpose of what happens to your NFA weapons when you pass away. If at any point the trust is found to be invalid, because it's setup wrong or missing something necessary in MN, etc. a person can find themself in a *lot* of trouble. Compared to the cost of most NFA weapons, a trust is a one-time minor expense that should be taken seriously, and looked at by a lawyer who specializes in such things. Also, just because BATFE approves your application doesn't absolve you should your trust later be found to be wrong in some way. It's up to you, not the BATFE to ensure that it's correct.

If you go to a place that offers do-it-yourself trust kits, ask if they have a lawyer on staff to help you through the paperwork and answer questions. If not, you're completely on your own. If anyone other than a lawyer assists you in any way in filling out trust documents, or provides advice or recommendations in any way, they are practicing law without a license. Not only is their advice both illegal and highly suspect, but you have no one to turn to if something goes wrong.

This stuff isn't very complicated, but can be a bit overwhelming going into the first time. It's definitely worth contacting the right people and getting the right answers to make sure everything is done correctly. The worst case scenario for getting something wrong is 10 years in federal prison, so I encourage everyone to take their questions to a lawyer who can go into whatever details you would like explained, and can provide actual legal advice.

View · by **MJY65** on Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:23 pm

jshuberg wrote: If at any point the trust is found to be invalid, because it's setup wrong or missing something necessary in MN, etc. a person can find themself in a *lot* of trouble. Compared to the cost of most NFA weapons, a trust is a one-time minor expense that should be taken seriously, and looked at by a lawyer who specializes in such things. Also, just because BATFE approves your application doesn't absolve you should your trust later be found to be wrong in some way. It's up to you, not the BATFE to ensure that it's correct.

I have read that also, but haven't been able to find cases where the BATFE actually prosecuted a person based on an invalid trust. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but would like to learn more about the protocol.

View · by **jshuberg** on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:21 pm

Not having access to WestLaw, I have no idea either. Google doesn't turn up anything concrete, but I'm sure it's happened. If a trust is the owning entity, and it becomes invalid or prohibited to own firearms, whoever is in physical possession of the NFA firearms is in trouble. There's just no way around that.

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