Who has filed without a trust

Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Sigfan220 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:15 pm

Hmac wrote:
gun_fan111v2 wrote:
Ghost wrote:You have to buy the suppressor to get the serial number needed for the paperwork.


You can buy the suppressor any time you want, but you cannot submit the ATF paperwork until your trust is established

Unless you file as an individual, no trust. Then it can be submitted immediately, and cheaper.


How so?
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Hmac on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:34 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:
Hmac wrote:Unless you file as an individual, no trust. Then it can be submitted immediately, and cheaper.


How so?

Skip the cost of creating a trust, buy the suppressor, file the Form 4, pay $200, wait 6 months.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby MJY65 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:46 pm

Bitter Bastard wrote: And I'll state with no links to back up my assertions, but those that think their wife is in possession of their NFA stuff because she has the safe combo, well, my opinion is their tin foil hat is on a bit tight. I'd be happy to learn otherwise through actual convictions by the feds for such a thing, but I'm pretty confident that's not really a thing in the real world.Bitter Bastard


I suspect you're right. On the other hand, there could be secret prisons filled with wives who knew combinations and guys that shot someone in a legitimate case of self defense but unfortunately used hand loaded ammo. Of course, those prisons are relatively small compared to those housing miscreants that removed the tags from mattresses.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Sigfan220 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:00 pm

Hmac wrote:
Sigfan220 wrote:
Hmac wrote:Unless you file as an individual, no trust. Then it can be submitted immediately, and cheaper.


How so?

Skip the cost of creating a trust, buy the suppressor, file the Form 4, pay $200, wait 6 months.


That's only if you pay for the trust. Places are doing them for free now.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Hmac on Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:09 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:
Hmac wrote:
Sigfan220 wrote:How so?

Skip the cost of creating a trust, buy the suppressor, file the Form 4, pay $200, wait 6 months.


That's only if you pay for the trust. Places are doing them for free now.

Sounds like a good deal for someone who thinks a trust is a good move and has a trusting and optimistic nature.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Holland&Holland on Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:50 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
Sigfan220 wrote:Trust is the ticket for many reasons. I however have not used my trust, I keep everything under my FFL. I would not buy a suppressor (or any NFA item) without a trust.

Why?


The main reasons are: you are the only one who may possess it. If you get hurt at the range with your buddy and get taken out in an ambulance your buddy is now illegally possessing you NFA item. The police would gladly take it but good luck getting it back in a timely fashion or in the same condition. The same goes for your family. If anyone in your family knows the code to your safe they would be illegally possessing it when you are not in the house. Same for when you die. You can modify the trust at any time to include more or less people.

I was talking with some people in the industry and they said to do one trustee per item. Then when you want to sell it you sell the trust too and they don't pay the $200 tax because you are not transferring it. You would simply be changing the names on the trust removing yourself and adding the buyer.

The whole possession thing is reason enough in my mind.


That sounds like a slippery slope that could be used then for all sorts of violations. If I pick up my wife's prescription at Target and it is a controlled substance and I get pulled over I am then in possession of a controlled substance that I do not have a prescription for personally? I can understand some reasons to have a trust but I do think this one is very far fetched.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Sigfan220 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:42 am

We are not talking about prescriptions hear. I would find it hard to believe that an officer will do anything if you are in possession of a family members prescription drugs. NFA items are a serious matter and should be treated accordingly. I persionally do not belive suppressors, SBS, SBR, or AOW items should even be considered NFA. I however am not going to be the first person they make an example of for braking the law. I honestly believe that if you got pulled over with your buddies suppressor that you would spend at least one night in jail while they sort things out. I personally would not go to jail over my buddies poor planning. Trusts do not cost any money and do not take that much time to create. There is no reason not to file with a trust. That is just my thinking, that gun owners should be responsible so we do not give ourselves a bad image. The media is looking for any opportunity to make an example of us. We are finally making some forward progress, lets not screw it up.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby xd ED on Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:53 am

Holland&Holland wrote:That sounds like a slippery slope that could be used then for all sorts of violations. If I pick up my wife's prescription at Target and it is a controlled substance and I get pulled over I am then in possession of a controlled substance that I do not have a prescription for personally? I can understand some reasons to have a trust but I do think this one is very far fetched.

If I'm not mistaken, the late 'Prince' ran into that very issue.
I don't believe others were allowed to pick up some of his prescriptions...thus his appearances at the local pharmacies.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:35 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:We are not talking about prescriptions hear. I would find it hard to believe that an officer will do anything if you are in possession of a family members prescription drugs. NFA items are a serious matter and should be treated accordingly. I persionally do not belive suppressors, SBS, SBR, or AOW items should even be considered NFA. I however am not going to be the first person they make an example of for braking the law. I honestly believe that if you got pulled over with your buddies suppressor that you would spend at least one night in jail while they sort things out. I personally would not go to jail over my buddies poor planning. Trusts do not cost any money and do not take that much time to create. There is no reason not to file with a trust. That is just my thinking, that gun owners should be responsible so we do not give ourselves a bad image. The media is looking for any opportunity to make an example of us. We are finally making some forward progress, lets not screw it up.


I am not talking about a buddies suppressors. I am talking about your wife having the code to your safe being the same as she has possession of it when you are not home. If you are going to post ridiculousness then post the case law to prove it.
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Postby george on Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:38 pm

Oh No, my wife has all my safe combinations......wait, she's also a trustee on my trust ! WHEW that was close.
Just being funny.

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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Bitter Bastard on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:34 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:We are not talking about prescriptions hear. I would find it hard to believe that an officer will do anything if you are in possession of a family members prescription drugs. NFA items are a serious matter and should be treated accordingly. I persionally do not belive suppressors, SBS, SBR, or AOW items should even be considered NFA. I however am not going to be the first person they make an example of for braking the law. I honestly believe that if you got pulled over with your buddies suppressor that you would spend at least one night in jail while they sort things out. I personally would not go to jail over my buddies poor planning. Trusts do not cost any money and do not take that much time to create. There is no reason not to file with a trust. That is just my thinking, that gun owners should be responsible so we do not give ourselves a bad image. The media is looking for any opportunity to make an example of us. We are finally making some forward progress, lets not screw it up.


I agree with not making gun owners look bad. However, dissecting your chain of events, it sounds very non-plausible to me and does not persuade me to make my life more complicated with a trust. Let's count the chain of events in your scenario:

1) You are shooting with your buddy
2) He brought some NFA stuff with him that day
3) he has an accident bad enough he has to go to the hospital, so you agree to take his guns home for him
4) You get pulled over on the way
5) For whatever reason, the cops search your car and find the NFA stuff
6) You get a cop that knows what NFA is
7) The cop arrests you for NFA violation

Unfortunately, I have a job, so the number of days I'm able to go shooting with my buddies is quite limited. Say, 20 days a year at most. Of those 20 days a year, no one in our shooting group has ever gone to the hospital. Not every range trip (although most do!) include NFA. I've never been pulled over going to or coming from the range. I've only ever had my car searched once when I was pulled over (speeding), many years ago, and from what I know today, that was an illegal search. But the search was somewhat cursory and didn't include all my possessions, so #5 may not have been hit above. I can't speak to #6 in that scenario but I've talked to a few cops who have NO idea on NFA stuff - not even that an SBR is anything to be concerned about. Certainly some do, but not all of them by any means. So as we walk the steps above, the percentage chance all of that happens goes down to practically 0. I'm OK with that.

At any rate, that's a pretty far-fetched chain of events to justify a trust. Now with all the additional hassle to file for NFA stuff with a trust, I just don't see the worth. I'm NOT arguing against a trust, because there ARE advantages to them, but there are also disadvantages, and I'm just trying to make sure people choose one for the right reasons, and not FUD.

Filing as an individual is quick and easy and has very few real-world downsides compared to trust or corporate ownership.

YMMV,

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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Sigfan220 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:08 pm

The way you guys are describing a trust it would see you think it is 1) complicated 2) expensive. It is not either.

Yeah the chances are slim to none of getting into a bind with an NFA item. But if you can prevent it for a little more of your time and no additional cost why not? You guys make it seem like you need to endless hours and countless dollars to get a trust. If you are going to wait 4-6 months(or whatever the wait is now) what is an other hour or two(not even) to create a trust. It's like home owners insurance, do you plan on your house burning down? No!! Do you have homeowners insurance - yes. Why? For that one in a million chance something may happen. Trusts are the same for NFA items. The odds of actually needing them are slim to none. But the day you need a trust you REALLY NEED it.

I have not been in prison to date and plan on keeping it that way as long as I can. You will do jail time for illegal possession of an NFA item. It may only be a night or two but you will be going to jail while they sort everything out. My example of your spouse being in illegal possession is pretty slim. I would think they would just remove the NFA item from the house. In which case you will have to fight to get it back and possibly hire an attorney if they give you trouble. I don't think they would jail a spouse.
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Postby george on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:23 pm

A gun trust can also be used for other guns to. A lawyer told me once that others are trying to make it hard to hand down your firearms from generation to generation and this is also where that same trust could be used for the beneficiaries of all your firearms including nfa.

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Re:

Postby xd ED on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:40 pm

george wrote:A gun trust can also be used for other guns to. A lawyer told me once that others are trying to make it hard to hand down your firearms from generation to generation and this is also where that same trust could be used for the beneficiaries of all your firearms including nfa.

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This, to me is a major benefit of a trust.
In the event of a death, particularly a very untimely one, it could keep the guns in the possession of those desired by the owner.
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Re: Who has filed without a trust

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:38 pm

Sigfan220 wrote:The way you guys are describing a trust it would see you think it is 1) complicated 2) expensive. It is not either.

Yeah the chances are slim to none of getting into a bind with an NFA item. But if you can prevent it for a little more of your time and no additional cost why not? You guys make it seem like you need to endless hours and countless dollars to get a trust. If you are going to wait 4-6 months(or whatever the wait is now) what is an other hour or two(not even) to create a trust. It's like home owners insurance, do you plan on your house burning down? No!! Do you have homeowners insurance - yes. Why? For that one in a million chance something may happen. Trusts are the same for NFA items. The odds of actually needing them are slim to none. But the day you need a trust you REALLY NEED it.

I have not been in prison to date and plan on keeping it that way as long as I can. You will do jail time for illegal possession of an NFA item. It may only be a night or two but you will be going to jail while they sort everything out. My example of your spouse being in illegal possession is pretty slim. I would think they would just remove the NFA item from the house. In which case you will have to fight to get it back and possibly hire an attorney if they give you trouble. I don't think they would jail a spouse.


I am not saying there are not benefits to a trust. In fact I am considering which is the best way for myself. What I am saying is that I asked for realistic benefits and got craziness back in return.

There are downsides to a trust as well I am sure. I would like to hear honest, true pros AND cons really. Not just your wife will go to jail. That is just crazy. Also, I suspect the "free" trusts are quite limited in what they can accomplish, probably to do what I would look to use a trust for it is going to be a grand. Not that I am saying I am not going to do that, in fact I may, I am just saying I am trying to decide if it makes more sense to do a trust or go personal. One of the first obstacles as I see it is that you do not own it, the trust does. Whomever else is in the trust also owns it. What if you do not trust anybody?
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