Testing new Long Range rifle.

[RAGGED]

yes.

And that is its weight when it leaves the rifle? You are not adding any tip to increase the weight and BC? The total weight of your .695 BC projectile is 120gr?

[Rip Van Winkle]

Lost River J36 135gr B.C .7351 @3000 fps
Matrix VLD 165gr B.C .7381 @2800 fps
Matrix VLD 175gr B.C .7828 @2700fps

Not sure why it is hard to understand a solid round 120-140 gr @4000 fps having a B.C of .7 area.. these are examples that DO exists and I have fired. The Matrix rounds I have found to be very satisfactory in accuracy. The LR's as well but a barrel length of over 30" and trist rate of 11 is needed. Hope this helps, If not then I guess theres no hope.

If Lost River is claiming a BC of .7351 on a .277 cal. 135gr bullet, they are lying through their teeth. As far as the Matrix numbers go, they are a little more believable but they are still being "fudged" upward.

You see, here is the dirty little secret, bullet manufactures, especially custom manufactures, lie about their numbers. They're also basing their numbers on the outdated and unrealistic G1 model instead of the newer and more realistic G7 model. Berger bullets recently downgraded their BC numbers based on the new G7 model, unfortunately they still need to publish the old G1 numbers. Marketing being what marketing is.
Berger Bullets

[RAGGED]

You see, here is the dirty little secret, bullet manufactures, especially custom manufactures, lie about their numbers. They're also basing their numbers on the outdated and unrealistic G1 model instead of the newer and more realistic G7 model. Berger bullets recently downgraded their BC numbers based on the new G7 model, unfortunately they still need to publish the old G1 numbers. Marketing being what marketing is.
Berger Bullets

Here is another dirty little secret, people on the internet lie

[Snowgun]

I love this thread. I can TASTE Ragged's frustration. Either LongRange has a medical obfuscation problem, or he is the best gun troll EVER!

I love those TTSX copper bullets that he pictured in the OP. They shoot awesome out of my stock 7mm, like .3 MOA. They have a BC (stated from barnes and found on JMB ballistics, etc) of about .412 i think. It's sucky compared to others but they shoot pretty fast and hit like a freightrain. Bang flopped a 4x4 this year at 300yds with one. I know Sam and Ragged say it's all about the BC and such but I'll remain in the speed demon camp, since I only play in the 0-600 yrd kiddy pool.

Anyway, carry on, this is fun AND educational! If only Sam would show up...

[RAGGED]

I know Sam and Ragged say it's all about the BC and such but I'll remain in the speed demon camp, since I only play in the 0-600 yrd kiddy pool.

BC is always king But speed has allot to do with BC so in essence we agree. I love super-fast flat shooting rounds, especially for 0-400 yard varmint hunting and whatnot, but for 500 and on I like rounds that will buck they wind and carry massive amounts of energy. I honestly think this is one of the coolest builds I've seen on this site, and that the OP likely knows more than I do, but it disappoints me that he brings 100% false info to the table and seemingly over estimates one round while completely underestimating another.
I just don't understand being so invested in something that you have to play games and attempt to lie. To even suggest this round has better 1000yd performance than any of the 338 Supermags is just silly, at least when talking about wind drift and retained energy, the numbers just don't support it. If you allow one round to use a full on custom bullet then you must compare that to another round with similar level of bullet, comparing a crazy custom bullet (with unknown data) to a light for caliber hunting bullet is just a flawed comparison and intellectually dishonest.

[Rip Van Winkle]

I read somewhere years ago that an additional BC of .005 was worth the equivalent of 100fps muzzle velocity. I'm not sure I agree with those numbers but it gives a good idea of the importance of ballistic coefficients and why the bullet manufactures lie about their numbers. It's important to remember that there is no magic pixie dust one can sprinkle on a bullet to give it a higher BC, if a manufacturer's numbers seem high they probably are.

[Snowgun]

I read somewhere years ago that an additional BC of .005 was worth the equivalent of 100fps muzzle velocity. I'm not sure I agree with those numbers but it gives a good idea of the importance of ballistic coefficients and why the bullet manufactures lie about their numbers. It's important to remember that there is no magic pixie dust one can sprinkle on a bullet to give it a higher BC, if a manufacturer's numbers seem high they probably are.

So, how does one then determine actual bc? With speed and various drops at range? Entered into a regression algorithm?

[crbutler]

The easiest way is to get one of the fancy oehler models, and set up screens at the muzzle and a couple hundred yards downrange and the computer figures it our for you.

Another way is to have multiple chronos and measure velocity at different points and plug it in- this is what the Oehler does, but you don't have to do the math.

The more difficult way is to shoot a bunch at range and then measure the drop and use that in the mathematical formula to figure it out, but the big problem there is getting the measurements accurate enough to be able to tell what the BC is further than 2 significant digits.

I've done the first, the other two were more theoretical exercises and really showed me how easy it is to mess it up. (I had the answer and just checked it against the results... If you are mathematically inclined it can be fun, but I would rather just shoot...)

[Rip Van Winkle]

So, how does one then determine actual bc? With speed and various drops at range? Entered into a regression algorithm?

If your a large corporation with deep pockets like Lapua you use Doppler radar. If your a smaller company like Sierra you measure the velocity of the bullet at the muzzle and the target a known distance away. If your just a regular guy like you or me you have 2 choices, 1) blind faith, or 2) results on paper.

I prefer #2.

[RAGGED]

All this talk of crazy BC's really has me itching to put a new 7.5 twist bbl on my TRG so I can run some 1.174BC GS pills, coming out at 2750FPS would be plenty nice for those windy days up at Harris, sure it would drop out of the 1.174 range pretty fast (300 yards) but it would still be pulling over 1.0 all the way to 2350yds, 27.2" of drift @ 1000 with a 10mph cross.

[Rip Van Winkle]

All this talk of crazy BC's really has me itching to put a new 7.5 twist bbl on my TRG so I can run some 1.174BC GS pills, coming out at 2750FPS would be plenty nice for those windy days up at Harris, sure it would drop out of the 1.174 range pretty fast (300 yards) but it would still be pulling over 1.0 all the way to 2350yds, 27.2" of drift @ 1000 with a 10mph cross.

Unless their lying about their numbers.

[RAGGED]

Unless their lying about their numbers.

at over $2 a pop they better not be!

[rugersol]

Unless their lying about their numbers.

at over $2 a pop they better not be!

$40/bx of .338 Lapua?! ... that's not bad!

[OldmanFCSA]

I must be honest and say that this topic has been interesting and disheartening in the manner in which we present data and how we disagree with data presented, whether true or not.

But it has been interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The following has been copied from the LehighBullets website and is my bullet of choice for shooting Long Rang, 1000 yard, 1 mile, or more. Using your ballistic computer softwares, how does this projectile stand up to any of the others listed here.
My non-standard target load delivers 2840-2850 fps measured 15 ft from muzzle on a 65 degree day.

"The .510 Match BoreRider, Heavy is a premium match bullet with a front etching band diameter is 0.502 and the rear driving band diameter is 0.5105. This heavy, 815 grain bullet has demonstrated excellent match accuracy .
Weight - 815 grains
BC (calculated) - 1.128
Length - 2.620
Design velocity - 2,500-3,000
Material - UNSC36000 brass
Sold in a packages of 50 at $100.00/box."

[OldmanFCSA]

Using my downloaded free software from Berger Bullets .......................

+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.5105 inches | Temperature: 65 degrees | Sight Height: 2.5 inches |
| Weight: 815 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range:1000 yards |
| G7 BC: 1.128 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G7 Form Factor: 0.396 | Density: 0.07559 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 2845 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock | |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2845 14647 -2.50 0.0000 0.00
100 2803 14221 19.35 0.1062 -0.14
200 2762 13805 36.79 0.2140 -0.56
300 2721 13397 49.67 0.3234 -1.26
400 2680 13000 57.86 0.4345 -2.25
500 2640 12611 61.21 0.5472 -3.54
600 2600 12232 59.57 0.6617 -5.14
700 2560 11861 52.80 0.7780 -7.05
800 2521 11499 40.72 0.8961 -9.27
900 2482 11147 23.18 1.0160 -11.83
1000 2443 10803 -0.00 1.1378 -14.71