Gonna buy an AR...

[Hmac]

That's actually never been the case. Noveske employees work at PacNor to turn out the blanks, the employees then clock out at PacNor and clock in at Noveske along with the barrel blanks, where they do the chambering and rifling in-house using proprietary technique designed by John Noveske. ........


I'm not a piston guy. Nothing wrong with the concept, but my old-school brain sees them as a solution in search of a problem. That being said...if I were going to buy an AR with a piston gas system, I would get a Huldra (you can see them at a Fleet Farm near you). I've seen them shoot and I know many of the principles in the company. It's an excellent rifle.

http://www.huldraarms.com/

I don't think what you're saying is correct. John Noveske worked for PacNor before he started Noveske Rifle Works. The companies are closely associated. I think John Noveske tries to spin it like his barrels are highly proprietary and made with pixie dust.



Huldra = Adams Arms if you don't want to get them through fleet farm.

So, all we have is your suspicion that John Noveske is being disingenuous despite his straightforward statements to the contrary as well as Noveske's longstanding reputation. I can't help your bias and won't bother to try. Noveske's reputation pretty much speaks for itself and isn't going to be changed by anything that you or I might say here on this consumer-oriented general firearms forum. Any given rifle company can turn out good rifles and bad rifles. The odds of getting a good one that is both reliable and accurate are substantially greater with companies with higher QA standards like Noveske, BCM, DD, Colt than they are with consumer-grade companies like Bushmaster, RRA, or DPMS. This is pretty much common knowledge among people who shoot these rifles a lot.

As to Huldra, they have proprietary, Huldra-specific modifications to the Adam's Arms concept that represent substantial improvement over AA's aftermarket conversions.

[gyrfalcon]

So, all we have is your suspicion that John Noveske is being disingenuous despite his straightforward statements to the contrary as well as Noveske's longstanding reputation. I can't help your bias and won't bother to try.............
As to Huldra, they have proprietary, Huldra-specific modifications to the Adam's Arms concept that represent substantial improvement over AA's aftermarket conversions.

Huldra-specific modifications? Gezz was there a John Huldra that worked for Adam Arms that took his dark art riflebuilding skills to Mills Fleet farm?

I'm not saying Noveske is being disingenuous, just that their products aren't particularly special. I'm actually surprised he admitted he made the barrels from 416R steel. The way most people describe Noveske products is like the metal was dug up by Buddhist monks and forged using a special secretive process that Noveske invented. Sure they have a lot of QC but they also charge a lot for their products.

For example if you took the barrel sold below and compared it in real life to the Noveske offering that's approximately twice the cost, I doubt you would find any appreciable difference:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... arrel.html

[Hmac]

So, all we have is your suspicion that John Noveske is being disingenuous despite his straightforward statements to the contrary as well as Noveske's longstanding reputation. I can't help your bias and won't bother to try.............
As to Huldra, they have proprietary, Huldra-specific modifications to the Adam's Arms concept that represent substantial improvement over AA's aftermarket conversions.

Huldra-specific modifications? Gezz was there a John Huldra that worked for Adam Arms that took his dark art riflebuilding skills to Mills Fleet farm?

I'm not saying Noveske is being disingenuous, just that their products aren't particularly special. I'm actually surprised he admitted he made the barrels from 416R steel. The way most people describe Noveske products is like the metal was dug up by Buddhist monks and forged using a special secretive process that Noveske invented. Sure they have a lot of QC but they also charge a lot for their products.

For example if you took the barrel sold below and compared it in real life to the Noveske offering that's approximately twice the cost, I doubt you would find any appreciable difference:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... arrel.html

This is a common and highly arguable discussion relative to our respective biases and likely serves no point to carry it farther. The OP can do his own research at professional-oriented sites like http://M4Carbine.net and draw his own conclusions about the relative quality of the many, many AR15 mfgrs. IMHO, his original instincts are correct about Noveske's quality.

[rugersol]

http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=30392

[rugersol]

Noveske or POF? Why? I want accuracy, quality and something that is the best.

why not both?

... POF billet lower + Noveske upper

[Cuda66]

Well, if you really want the best...just get an H&K MR556.

[shackleford]

I really think that none of you know what you are talking about. Everyone knows that the best AR is only made by a few related companies. Blackthorne, Hesse, and Vulcan. They make the machine gun of the special forces. End of story.

[gyrfalcon]

I really think that none of you know what you are talking about. Everyone knows that the best AR is only made by a few related companies. Blackthorne, Hesse, and Vulcan. They make the machine gun of the special forces. End of story.

FTW!

[jshuberg]

I'm a big fan of piston AR's when barrel length is under 16". The AR platform and .223 cartridge were designed around a 20" barrel. If you use a barrel length significantly less than this, the reliable operation of the direct impingement system can become an issue. Short barrel AR gas systems operate under higher pressures than their longer barreled brothers do, increasing the mechanical stresses and wear. They are also more finicky about the type of ammo you feed them the shorter they get.

Gas piston systems have the advantage that they have self-regulating, and often adjustable gas settings. This results in the same rearward forces being applied to the carrier regardless of the ammo or barrel length. They also have the advantage that gasses aren't directed into the receiver, so it will run cooler and cleaner than a DI rifle. The US Army is considering (or at least has considered) revamping the M4 platform to use a gas piston rather than DI.

Gas piston systems have the disadvantage of additional moving parts, additional cost, no standardization in piston system designs, and additional weight - and specifically additional reciprocating weight over the barrel. While a piston system tends to stay on target better from shot to shot (due to additional weight buffering the recoil), there is also the possibility for a slight loss of accuracy for each individual shot. This is because the piston begins moving rearward before the bullet leaves the barrel, which can then impart a motion on the barrel before the bullet leaves. DI systems don't suffer this additional reciprocating mass over the barrel.

If you were looking for something under 16" (a Short Barrel Rifle), and especially if under 14", I'd suggest looking at a gas piston. If your looking at something 16" or longer, especially if accuracy is one of your more important criteria, skip the piston and go direct impingement. Everyone is going to have a slightly different opinion on this though, so really the only right answer is the one that you decide is right.

[Dave Timm]

So, all we have is your suspicion that John Noveske is being disingenuous despite his straightforward statements to the contrary as well as Noveske's longstanding reputation. I can't help your bias and won't bother to try.............
As to Huldra, they have proprietary, Huldra-specific modifications to the Adam's Arms concept that represent substantial improvement over AA's aftermarket conversions.

Huldra-specific modifications? Gezz was there a John Huldra that worked for Adam Arms that took his dark art riflebuilding skills to Mills Fleet farm?

I'm not saying Noveske is being disingenuous, just that their products aren't particularly special. I'm actually surprised he admitted he made the barrels from 416R steel. The way most people describe Noveske products is like the metal was dug up by Buddhist monks and forged using a special secretive process that Noveske invented. Sure they have a lot of QC but they also charge a lot for their products.

For example if you took the barrel sold below and compared it in real life to the Noveske offering that's approximately twice the cost, I doubt you would find any appreciable difference:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... arrel.html

LOL, I love it John Huldra. Ha ha ha. No there is no John Huldra, just Stewart Mills who wanted to have a rifle with the Adams Arms piston system, at the time no such thing existed and Huldra Arms was born. Just my two cents, we liked Adams Arms products but presented some improvements that they have introduced into their production line. The biggest was the way the detent on the gas plug was retained. It formerly was secured with an e-clip, now it is secured with a roll pin for added durability. We also spec'd our rifles to have a pinned gas block, versus a screw or bolt on one like found in the kits. Now Adams Arms is our manufacturer/partner and make all of our rifles and uppers. I wasn't a piston guy at first, and I still won't go and sell any of my several DI guns. Truth be told I still like both systems, both have their pros and cons, advantages etc. Hmac and I have shot together before at classes etc and he is very knowledgeable and a great shooter. He has done is research and knows his stuff, for him to give us a compliment means a lot to me, Thanks for the recommendation Hmac.

What ever you end up deciding to buy, my recommendation (an no shameless plug here) is to buy once cry once, get a quality rifle, do your homework, call the company etc. See what type of customer service they have, how are they at answering questions, how do you think they will be if something happens after you buy the rifle. If you get a quality rifle in piston or DI, you will have just that, a quality rifle. Warning though, they are like pringles, you can't have just one .

Dave

[rukwikenuf]

if i were in the market to BUY a high end AR15, that would be a short list. LMT or LWRC. i'd go with the LWRC REPR in the 18" variant if i could toss around $3500 plus optics.
however, i'm a cheap-ass, i'm going to build the best damn AR i can by using a Palmetto stripped lower and CMMG lpk. it's going to take a little tweaking to get it just right, but i think the money saved on various parts is going to bring a better budget for the important stuff, like the barrel.

personally, i'm leaning toward an 18" SPR bbl that i can hopefully have fluted forward of the gas block. weight isn't a concern, but i'll make sure to keep it under 10lbs unloaded, with optics.
thats the other thing you're going to have to consider: optics! if you wanna do a set from EOTech, a holo and magnifier, you're going to have a TON of money into just that! if you wanna do a scope, pick the right rifle. there's no sense in a 14.5" AR15 with a pinned and welded FH that has a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. for a short CQB type carbine, a cheap-ish Nikkon M223 would be JUST fine. if you WANTED to use that Nightforce, that's where a riffle like the LWRC REPR 20" variant comes into play.

so, what's the goal for the gun?!?!!!

[jshuberg]

that's where a riffle like the LWRC REPR 20" variant comes into play.

Speaking of, do you still have that one I saw a couple weeks ago out there?

[rukwikenuf]

The 20" with PRS stock? I do believe so!

[jshuberg]

The 20" with PRS stock? I do believe so!

Damn. I was kinda hoping you sold it so the temptation would go away before I find myself with a much thinner wallet...

[MKearn]

if i were in the market to BUY a high end AR15, that would be a short list. LMT or LWRC. i'd go with the LWRC REPR in the 18" variant if i could toss around $3500 plus optics.
however, i'm a cheap-ass, i'm going to build the best damn AR i can by using a Palmetto stripped lower and CMMG lpk. it's going to take a little tweaking to get it just right, but i think the money saved on various parts is going to bring a better budget for the important stuff, like the barrel.

personally, i'm leaning toward an 18" SPR bbl that i can hopefully have fluted forward of the gas block. weight isn't a concern, but i'll make sure to keep it under 10lbs unloaded, with optics.
thats the other thing you're going to have to consider: optics! if you wanna do a set from EOTech, a holo and magnifier, you're going to have a TON of money into just that! if you wanna do a scope, pick the right rifle. there's no sense in a 14.5" AR15 with a pinned and welded FH that has a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. for a short CQB type carbine, a cheap-ish Nikkon M223 would be JUST fine. if you WANTED to use that Nightforce, that's where a riffle like the LWRC REPR 20" variant comes into play.

so, what's the goal for the gun?!?!!!

The goal is an AR that is really accurate and built to last longer than my lifetime. I appreciate quality and craftsmanship. I also want something that warrants a really nice optic. Off the top of my head, those are the high points. Eventually, I'd like to build one too. If for no other reason that to learn how to build one. Another friend strongly recommended LWRC as well btw.