What makes one AR better than another?

[JoeH]

It often comes up on this board that some believe Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River (and others) are junk. They are not for serious use. You are lucky if they run at all and can hit the broad side of a barn. Those that make that claim usually suggest that one purchases a Noveske or BCM. They say those brands are for serious shooters.

Now, I'm not sure where I stand on this whole deal. I've seen "the chart". That really doesn't mean much to me. I'm into results. List features until you are blue in the face. I'm not sure if those features matter and which are more important.

Personally, I have a Del-Ton 16" carbine and a JP-15 18" rifle. Both have run all of the ammo I've tried without any malfunctions. The JP is more accurate. Being heavier and having a better comp, I can shoot it faster.

So, let the fur fly! I know that most people will have an opinion on this and that opinion is just that, an opinion. I doubt that anyone will present facts that will change any minds, but one can hope.

[The Lance]

Barrel material and barrel type is the single most important factor of any AR.. Tier one manufacturers supposedly do more research and development to justify the higher cost.. I don't see it, either but I would glad fully own a dpms lower and upper receiver with a chromed line hammer forged barrel and upgraded trigger kit like a geissle.


A bolt carrier group is important too as an M16 full auto one properly staked and mpi tested will perform and handle rapid fire and full auto fire better then one that's just a ar-15 one. Nickel boron finishes and whatnot also have been proved to run smoother longer.
But that's what's nice about the platform.. You can start out cheap and swap out nicer and better parts easily.. The single most annoying thing about the platform is people's use of the term "mil spec"

[rukwikenuf]

honestly, a good bbl and a good optic are all you really need. i've looked at high end ARs many many times. there's a few Noveskes and Black Rain's at Bill's. i've handled Wilsons at Element, checked LWRCi's at both places, and i've shot most all of the above, as well as the cheapest offerings from DPMS and Bushmaster. one of the slickest feeling shooters i've handled was a Bushmaster Carbon-15 upper on a New Frontier Armory poly lower. the owner was smart enough to get rid of the existing trigger group, and it was a nice little blaster!

so, if you're WILLING to drop $2500 on a rifle, yeah, you're gonna get one hell of a gun. however, if you have a DPMS Sportical and you want to make it into a better gun, a bbl swap, free floating the handguard, and a quality scope will make a WORLD of difference.

realize the Military rifles are NOT the greatest ones on the planet. the Colt M16 i had would have required an act of God to get it to print a 2.5" grouping at 100. however, at 500 with irons, we Marines can put rounds on target. that's all that we need to do. pinpoint precision isn't the goal of a combat gun, however RELIABILITY is the #1 goal. look at the garbage AKs that have been used in various battles for over a half a century. they have some of the crappiest sights that are really only there for show. the stocks are held together with home made brackets and Black RTV Silicone. hell, most of them haven't had a brush or patch run through the bbl in decades. they still work, they still shoot, and they still claim the lives of American troops

[jgalt]

"The Chart" was originally put together by guys who (mostly) either currently, or used to, go in to harms way & need their rifles to work as close to 100% of the time as humanly possible. The list of recommended features is simply those that, when implemented / present on your AR (based on reports from both other folks who have been in that situation, and those who have taken high-volume, multi-day carbine classes and took notes on what is most likely to break in those conditions) are most likely meet that goal.

The highest-rated rifle on "the chart" isn't guaranteed to work 100% of the time, and the lowest-rated will almost certainly work most of the time for what most people buy their ARs for. Put another way, if you buy your AR as a home-defense / SHTF gun, the odds are very high that whatever gun you choose will work for you when you need it to - they're just higher the further up the list you go...

If you are buying for defensive purposes, each person will have their own way of figuring out how to play those odds & why, and no one answer is right for everyone. If you're buying for non-defensive purposes, then get whatever makes you happy. Everything will break eventually, and there is no real consequence when it does...

[Thunder71]

The Internet...

I agree with you JoeH. Would I like to have a $2000 AR? Sure... why not. Am I completely satisfied with the one I have, yes I am.

[Hmac]

It often comes up on this board that some believe Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River (and others) are junk. They are not for serious use. You are lucky if they run at all and can hit the broad side of a barn. Those that make that claim usually suggest that one purchases a Noveske or BCM. They say those brands are for serious shooters.

Now, I'm not sure where I stand on this whole deal. I've seen "the chart". That really doesn't mean much to me. I'm into results. List features until you are blue in the face. I'm not sure if those features matter and which are more important.

Personally, I have a Del-Ton 16" carbine and a JP-15 18" mid. Both have run all of the ammo I've tried with any malfunctions. The JP is more accurate. Being heavier and having a better comp, I can shoot it faster.

So, let the fur fly! I know that most people will have an opinion on this and that opinion is just that, an opinion. I doubt that anyone will present facts that will change any minds, but one can hope.

If you're only a couple of hundred rounds a year out at the range shooting at dirt clods, it's likely that your DelTon/Bushy/RRA/DPMS will be plenty "good enough" and would represent an adequate firearm for your use. If you're going to push it hard, year after year, you may want to consider a brand where general consensus suggests a more reliable track record. In the general AR world, accuracy is not of primary importance. Reliability is. A 2.5 inch group at 50 yards would be outstanding. I've never shot any of my ARs for groups, but I'm not sure my Noveske with Aimpoint would do that, and I'm ok with that.

Just an opinion.

[farmerj]

they are all mechanical devices.


What that means, if you don't take care of it, it's just a matter of time before it fails.

Accuracy costs to build to close tolerances. The closer the tolerances, the more likely it will be that murphy rears it's ugly head.

So if you want a blasting, gonna always work defensive zombie killing machine, get an AK.

If you want a lot more precision to it, get an AR.

As to MPI vs chrome lined vs .....

Go follow AR15.com some time and get an eye opener with the comments you will receive.

The gubermint started to spec the chrome chamber to make it less susceptible to powder fouling in vietnam. Someone had convinced "the-powers-that-be" people the AR design was self-cleaning at the beginning. Guess what, it wasn't.

The majority of weapons issues I have seen with this platform were from people knocking the back of the magazine on their kevlar. That in turns spreads the magazine feed lips apart. THAT causes double feeds. So in the end, if I saw someone tapping their magazines, I made them walk around with that magazine for an hour and tapping it on their helmet. In turn telling people that "THIS RUINS YOUR MAGAZINE AND YOU WILL NOT QUALIFY WHEN YOU MISFEED". It got the point across.

After that, it was over-lubing, then underlubing then just down right weapon neglect and full of debris. Overlubing collects carbon and that gums up the action.

The army buys $525 rifles. That's what it costs them for a new FN M4 Carbine or M16A4. My units received both those versions just prior to deploying to Kosovo and to Iraq. Nothing fancy about either of those either. And the M4's, we shot out to 600 meters. More than accurate. The M16A4's, those were the same ones the unit sent to the Winston P Wilson match. And I have seen those bone stock rifles turn in some scary ass scores. The best being a 100 - 10X string at 300 yards. To put that in perspective, the X-ring is 3" at 300 yards. Yes, the shooter was also a Presidents 100 holder too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President's_Hundred_Tab

[rugersol]

In the last 12mo, I've seen problems reported here with ... 1. a new Colt ... 2. a new BCM ... and no one said "boo" about it!

I ain't sayin' there's nothin' to superior materials, workmanship, q/c, voodoo ... whatever!

What I am sayin' is, so long as a human is involved ... somewhere along the line ... there's good odds, SOMETHING will get ****ed up!

Myself, if I had to have somethin' that was 100%, I'd try to convince JP I was a real "operator" ... if he believed that, I have little doubt, he'd do more, than anyone else, to ensure that gun would not fail me!

Anything else? ... ya, I think it's jest hype! ... ya wanna pay $100+ more so yer lower says "Noveske" on it?! ... no problem! ... I'd be a hypocrite if I said someone's a fool to pay more fer how a gun LOOKS! ... but ya, if ya think ya got somethin' that ain't never gonna let ya down, I got bad news!

Ultimately, I'd rather get lucky with a $100 BCG, than unlucky, with a $200 BCG!

[CarRacer]

Another difference to consider is gas port size. A lot of the budget rifles have larger than needed gas ports and are overgassed. A larger gas port will help ensure that the gun will function with a wider range of ammunition and adverse conditions. It also beats up on the internals more and shortens the life of parts. 90% of shooters will never shoot enough to notice that difference but the remainder that would are probably relying on their rifle instead of having fun.

It all comes down to what you intend to do with it and your expectations.

[gunforhire]

mine is mostly rock river and I haven't had a issue with it. as for my barrel, it's Chromoly not chrome lined 1n9 m4 profile. blasts fine and is pinhole accurate. I just clean the barrel more often. i say get a decent mid range gun or whatever makes you happy for how you are gonna use it and buy more ammo than spending 2k on a gun. There are plenty of guys using NFA lowers and love em and all sorts of "cheap" parts that last forever. Mil-spec isn't something to be necessarly sought after either. Mil-spec is whomever the gov't contract goes to(lowest bidder)

[yuppiejr]

I've never seen a roll mark induced failure on an AR, until I do my perspective is brand is irrelevant until you look at warranty/service and resale value. The rest is matching up the right mix of components for your intended application and reliability requirements, sometimes this is an out of the box option - sometimes you have to mix and match your rifle together to get there. Having good mags & sights (iron or electronic) and consistent ammunition is necessary regardless the rifle you are operating.

From my perspective, for the money and "pin and go" simplicity the Palmetto uppers with FN manufactured hammer forged/chrome lined barrels + 5.56 NATO chambers with the midlength gas system for anything under 18" is tough to beat... if you can stand the wait. If I'm looking at stainless I prefer 416 over 410 for the better wear characteristics but have never actually been close to even the half-life of a barrel I've owned. BCM certainly makes good stuff and I've heard a lot of good things about some of the DPMS barrels but never used one myself. Bolt carriers I look exclusively at FA/heavy models that follow the 'mil spec' requirements for construction/testing/staking/etc... don't care much who made it or what laser etched logo may be present but agree with the previous poster that the bolt carrier+barrel & chamber are not the place to cut corners if you intend to put any serious miles on the rifle. I prefer the feel of an all metal fire control system so I typically opt for a standard parts kit in the cheapest aluminum stripped lower I can find with an A2 rifle style buffer and stock assembly but usually splurge on a Magpul MOE grip and trigger guard....

[FJ540]

"The Chart" was originally put together by guys who (mostly) either currently, or used to, go in to harms way & need their rifles to work as close to 100% of the time as humanly possible.

Actually, Yellow Visor Rob (the guy who made the chart) is nothing more than a weekend gamer who spends his days in a cubicle compiling data of some form. He's never had military service, never been shot at, or even volunteered on a police force to direct traffic.

[jgalt]

"The Chart" was originally put together by guys who (mostly) either currently, or used to, go in to harms way & need their rifles to work as close to 100% of the time as humanly possible.

Actually, Yellow Visor Rob (the guy who made the chart) is nothing more than a weekend gamer who spends his days in a cubicle compiling data of some form. He's never had military service, never been shot at, or even volunteered on a police force to direct traffic.

I'm aware...

However, he didn't pull the info out of his ass. He searched for and got answers from those who do fit the description I gave. Regardless, the point is that waaaay to many people take that damned thing waaaay to seriously. It is good info - for what it is, and those who wish to knock it would do well to remember the second point before discussing the first...

[FJ540]

Nope, he looked at spec sheets. We had the discussion - it's somewhere on barf.com (unless they deleted it). He's a spreadsheet ninja, and he just compiled specs and put it out there to grow into interweb mallcop legend.

That's not to say 6 years ago it wasn't relevant. Some barrels are better material than others, and staked gas keys are better than non-staked. But to say it has some sort of relevance beyond that is, well, false.

[jgalt]

I was going based on memories of what I'd read about its origins from him & others (who definitely do fit the description I gave, and liked his work) on m4carbine - if I mis-remembered, then I stand corrected...