What makes one AR better than another?

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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Hmac on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:35 pm

FJ540 wrote:
AFTERMATH wrote:Let's settle this once and for all.

Buy me a rifle from each AR mfg. As well as a bottomless pit of ammo(all mfgs). I'll run each of them to failure, and then tell you which one I liked best.


Or you could go join the Army and when they hand you a $600 Remington you can go all ballistic and whip out the chart. :rotf:


Since the Army now owns the technical data package, those Remingtons will be manufactured to the same specs as the Colts you see on The Chart. Shouldn't make a difference. Supposedly. Time will tell.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby FJ540 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Right. My point exactly. ;)

The Army doesn't own it either, Colt gets a royalty off all contracts. Colt was pissy when Remington's bid came out so low, because their 5% came out less than half of the last sale.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby The Lance on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:55 pm

Shawski wrote:I feel quite honored, for lack of a better term, to own the only known Bushmaster that has never had a failure of any sort over several thousand rounds. How much is something like that worth?


if you were on m4carbine they would laugh at you for not having a bcm or a colt though..
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby AFTERMATH on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:21 pm

FJ540 wrote:
AFTERMATH wrote:Let's settle this once and for all.

Buy me a rifle from each AR mfg. As well as a bottomless pit of ammo(all mfgs). I'll run each of them to failure, and then tell you which one I liked best.


Or you could go join the Army and when they hand you a $600 Remington you can go all ballistic and whip out the chart. :rotf:


Ok - That's it, you now get my fourth ever 'laugh out loud."

LOL!

(Seriously, I do not use that expression lightly.)

Anyway, after they chew me a new *******, should I follow up with a rant that it's their fault for ditching the M14?
We'd never have any of these issues of brand loyalty and knock-offs if they'd have just stuck with the only real rifle introduced since the M1...
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby FJ540 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:48 pm

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it here somewhere before, but when I joined the Army I was not a fan of the M16 either. Why on earth would I shoot an enemy with a round I'd use on a prairie dog and expect them to die? :? But hey, we were getting free ammo and range time, and it sure beat the hell out of the previous 3 weeks of rolling in the mud doing front back go's bookcased by classroom lectures about UCMJ, and why I have to salute some guys and not others.... Hell yeah, I'd love to shoot a p-dog! Uh, I mean fast freddy and slow ivan. :mrgreen:

Then something funny happened: I liked my M16. :o Sure, it's not a battle rifle, but they are fun and mine proved to be quite reliable and easy to shoot accurately. I also bought my first AR as the first gun I purchased as a civilian after I got out.

It's ironic that Jon yelled at his men for doing what we were instructed to do with every mag before we loaded it into the gun. I have no doubt that whacking kevlar with a metal mag is a bad deal for the mag, and causes double feeds. The seating the bullets into the rear of the mag was supposedly the cure for the problem which was causing it. Typical Army policy. :)
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Lunchbox on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:00 am

So what is this chart that seems to have everybody's panties in a bunch? Hearing about it has stirred my curiosity.

I could add my opinion to the mix, but it has been mentioned a couple of times already (ARs = 1911s to put it simply)
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby jgalt on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:23 am

Lunchbox wrote:So what is this chart that seems to have everybody's panties in a bunch? Hearing about it has stirred my curiosity.

I could add my opinion to the mix, but it has been mentioned a couple of times already (ARs = 1911s to put it simply)


Link to "the chart" here => https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

Originally posted (so far as I know) here => http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

This link takes you to m4carbine.net and 70 pages (1394 posts!) worth of discussion about "the chart"... 8-)
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Lunchbox on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:54 am

Thanks for the link. I'll check out the chart, but it sounds like a fight I don't want to get into. Get into similar spats about 1911s with rukwikenuf every now and then. I'm still waiting for a good answer as to why I'd pay upwards of $3000 when you're not getting much more then a name. Which me personally, I don't care as long as it feels good and shoot just as well.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Hmac on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:41 am

Lunchbox wrote:Thanks for the link. I'll check out the chart, but it sounds like a fight I don't want to get into. Get into similar spats about 1911s with rukwikenuf every now and then. I'm still waiting for a good answer as to why I'd pay upwards of $3000 when you're not getting much more then a name. Which me personally, I don't care as long as it feels good and shoot just as well.


The Chart is about AR components. The defacto benchmark is "mil spec", assuming that if we're talking about a rife that's been to war successfully for 40 years, well...that ought to be something to aspire to if reliability is important...a professional-grade assault rifle.

So...is 4150 barrel steel (mil spec) better than 4140 (Bushmaster)? Sure it is. But is 4140 "good enough"? For most civilians, of course. Most weekend plinkers would never wear out a Bushmaster barrel. How about proof firing the barrel, or the bolt? Chinese or otherwise cheaply cast LPK? T6061 commercial diameter buffer tube? There's a long list of corners that can be cut on an AR that won't make the slightest bit of difference to someone who is only ever going to use the rifle to shoot at tin cans for a couple of hundred rounds a year. That $650 rifle will be absolutely "good enough".

But make no mistake, the Noveske's, Daniel Defense, BCM etc are demonstrably better made. They use higher quality components and have more meticulous quality control. This "paying for a name" bleat is just an excuse for someone to convince themselves that their $800 DPMS is as good as a $2000 Noveske. It's BS, of course...as if their Yugo is as good as a BMW (only paying for the name). BUT...if you're only driving your Yugo 1000 miles a year in nice weather to church on Sundays then absolutely, that Yugo is probably going to be good enough.

A lot of people aspire to the highest quality they can afford in firearms or cars or power drills. Others think its silly to spend the money on anything that's better than "good enough". The top tier rifles are higher quality that the lower tier, and they cost more. For those that often run their riles 2500 rounds in a weekend or 10,000 rounds per year, that bottom tier isn't going to be "good enough". But if you're just looking for a cool-looking range toy for 500 rounds per year then your RRA is almost certainly going to be good enough and buying a Noveske for $2000 would be silly.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Erud on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:16 am

Very well said, Hmac.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby farmerj on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:31 am

so (to kill a dead horse).....


What REALLY makes 4150 better than 4140?

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=85420 (it's also covered on page 414-415 of the 28th ed Machinery handbook.)

I won't even go into the discussions on the gun forums about it.

Because the big difference is the carbon content making the 4150 just a touch harder. And only being a bigger benefit when you harden or temper the steel. More suited for gears and such over a rifle barrel. Otherwise, it's the SAME class of steel. 41XX.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby The Lance on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:19 am

Chrome lining or non chrome lined would make more of a difference between the steel...Even then Ferritic Nitrocarburization is superior as its more durable and more evenly applied as the metallurgical properties are chemically changed. It's not "mil-spec" so it of course isn't the standard. But the military moves very slow and doesn't use what's more technologically advanced and better, albeit less known about.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby rugersol on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:27 am

The Lance wrote:But the military moves very slow and doesn't use what's more technologically advanced and better

... 'til they get their new Remingtons! ;)

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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby t140 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:50 pm

rugersol wrote:
The Lance wrote:But the military moves very slow and doesn't use what's more technologically advanced and better

... 'til they get their new Remingtons! ;)

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Remington no longer holds the contract. Colt petitioned the US Army's decision and the top competitors from the last bid are rebidding.
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Re: What makes one AR better than another?

Postby Hmac on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:04 pm

t140 wrote:
Remington no longer holds the contract. Colt petitioned the US Army's decision and the top competitors from the last bid are rebidding.


Is that info more recent than the November GAO ruling?

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscou ... his-be-it/

If so, what a circus the govt bidding process is. No wonder US forces are
still using a 40 year old platform.
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