A R Rifles Gas or Piston?

[Snowgun]

The difference is a loss of points or a loss of life. Pick whatever you want. I know what I'm going with.

The FUD sales tactic must get you every time.

The significance of the point of diminishing returns will very from person to person. The returns may be diminishing but as you pay more, you still get more. The point where you decide to stop paying more is going to depend on your resources. Again, what constitutes "good enough" in a firearm choice is personal opinion. Some people have higher expectations and are willing to pay more to achieve them.

Totally agree. I just wish most people understood the details of how much bang they were getting from their buck. If you showed them the 1% they were paying 20% more for, I think many would reconsider...

[Hmac]

Totally agree. I just wish most people understood the details of how much bang they were getting from their buck. If you showed them the 1% they were paying 20% more for, I think many would reconsider...

That too is highly subjective. What you perceive as being "1% more" doesn't necessarily apply to other people buying into the platform. Different people value different features differently. You can't expect all AR buyers to share YOUR point of diminishing returns.

[Tronster]

You may have a budget consumer grade AR that has an unshrouded pin and unlined chamber with commercial grade or plastic buffer tube. It may work fine, for a long time even.
But when that firing pin gets bent just a little too much because it's being forced up while resetting the hammer.
But after getting hot the cases start to stick in the unlined chamber.
But when the butt of the gun gets dropped one time too hard and the buffer tube tweaks causing the buffer to drag.

Those are potential performance hindering areas that can be minimized by a milspec AR.

The point of diminishing returns is to show that the military specifications will be the same between a mid grade and top tier AR as far as functionality. What a top tier buyer is paying for is perhaps exotic materials or certain prototype/unique operating features that make the gun easier to manipulate. Or perhaps even more attention to detail and quality control than a mid grade.

Think of it like building a drag car motor. Simple engine upgrades to a 300 hp motor might up it to 500 hp real quick, but eventually you will be spending alot of money to tweak an extra 50 hp out of a motor already making 700hp. At what point is it fast enough for YOU.

[jshuberg]

I have a car I'd like you to take a look at sometime if you don't mind

[t140]

The FUD sales tactic must get you every time.

I am a huge fan of innovations. In fact, the only ar15 I have has a non-standard bolt, extractor, barrel extension, lower and even gas system.

If a manufacturer markets a system as a competition piece, I treat it as such. Even on JP's page, they state, "For police tactical duty or any application where absolute reliability is the main criteria, we have our FMOS"

Gaining almost no secondary recoil and giving up any reliability is unacceptable in my eyes. Hmac has it right.

[Snowgun]

Totally agree. I just wish most people understood the details of how much bang they were getting from their buck. If you showed them the 1% they were paying 20% more for, I think many would reconsider...

That too is highly subjective. What you perceive as being "1% more" doesn't necessarily apply to other people buying into the platform. Different people value different features differently. You can't expect all AR buyers to share YOUR point of diminishing returns.

Its not subjective at all. Pick any metric of "reliability" or performance and a test can be constructed to characterize it. Only problem is nobody bothers, instead its up to marketing to throw out vague performance or FUD statements, which then get parroted all over gun boards till they are taken for truth. Some are legit, its the actual amount that is in question.

Again, i personally buy higher end stuff, and agree with varying personal assessments of value, but i also buy cheaper stuff when i dont see the evidence. Either way i do a lot of research, and its frustrating finding facts.

[Hmac]

Its not subjective at all. Pick any metric of "reliability" or performance and a test can be constructed to characterize it. Only problem is nobody bothers, instead its up to marketing to throw out vague performance or FUD statements, which then get parroted all over gun boards till they are taken for truth. Some are legit, its the actual amount that is in question.

Again, i personally buy higher end stuff, and agree with varying personal assessments of value, but i also buy cheaper stuff when i dont see the evidence. Either way i do a lot of research, and its frustrating finding facts.

The metrics aren't the issue. The value that people put on those metrics is the issue. I may value a "milspec" buffer tube or a full auto BCG more than you (apparently I do), or I may value a PEEK plastic buffer tube less than you do (apparently I do).

[Snowgun]

I may value a "milspec" buffer tube or a full auto BCG more than you (apparently I do), or I may value a PEEK plastic buffer tube less than you do (apparently I do).

Aha...

Why do you? Just because?

If I could empirically show you that a mil spec buffer tube was WORSE than a commercial, or even a PEEK buffer tube, would that change your mind? Or would you blindly follow internet precedent?

Your answer (if sane) would be that you would consider changing your mind, because you will have information with which to adjust your value equation.

Value = (Performance+quality)/cost.

Real, Factual information on feature efficacy is the point i'm trying to make here. I'm not saying I have it. I'm just saying that nobody else really does either. And until it surfaces, "value" will be not only subjective but wildly out of wack with reality. Gear heads like me (and I assume you) can only try to guarantee quality and performance by sacrificing money for it since typically better = more expensive. That assumption is all we have to go on. Oh, and internet rumor sprinkled with one time anecdotes.

This, of course, is why the internet is so fun, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to have fun discussions like this.

[Snowgun]

I would buy a factory build as I don't have the knowledge to build one.
What kind of money should I expect to spend? I want Quallity.I would
Just use it at the Sand pit maybe sending 200 rounds down range
each outing.I can appreciate a good Rifle. Down the road I might like to put a custom
AR together. Thanks guys keep the info. coming.

Just wanted to circle back to the OP, since I feel at fault here for drifting...

"I want Quality."

"Just use it at the Sand pit maybe sending 200 rounds down range
each outing."

These are two different messages. "quality" could be interpreted as a full **** blown high end colt/Daniel Defense/LWRC/LMT/Larue, top of the line >$3000 rifle that could be carried to hell and back, all the while firing 10000 rounds without lube and cleaning.

I guarantee you can buy ANY AR 15 and put 200 rounds down range at a sand pit. Are we talking about ~100 yrds? Less? Then you may not want to pay for 0.5moa accuracy. Many "economy" AR's will give you all the performance you are looking for. PLUS< you can always upgrade and change the parts!

My suggestion is buy a stock DPMS or similar, learn how to use it, learn how to take it apart, learn how to modify it, hack it, and then save your money to build/purchase your dream AR which you will know EXACTLY what you want on it.

[Hmac]

I may value a "milspec" buffer tube or a full auto BCG more than you (apparently I do), or I may value a PEEK plastic buffer tube less than you do (apparently I do).

Aha...

Why do you? Just because?

If I could empirically show you that a mil spec buffer tube was WORSE than a commercial, or even a PEEK buffer tube, would that change your mind? Or would you blindly follow internet precedent?

Your answer (if sane) would be that you would consider changing your mind, because you will have information with which to adjust your value equation.

Right now, milspec represents 40 years of observation and evolution of the platform and is the best empirical evidence we have on the issue. Certainly, if you can provide evidence that exceeds that, or even comes close, then absolutely...sign me up.

[Hmac]

I would buy a factory build as I don't have the knowledge to build one.
What kind of money should I expect to spend? I want Quallity.I would
Just use it at the Sand pit maybe sending 200 rounds down range
each outing.I can appreciate a good Rifle. Down the road I might like to put a custom
AR together. Thanks guys keep the info. coming.

My suggestion is buy a stock DPMS or similar, learn how to use it, learn how to take it apart, learn how to modify it, hack it, and then save your money to build/purchase your dream AR which you will know EXACTLY what you want on it.

Actually that's not bad advice, depending on how the OP defines "quality", how bad he needs it, how bad he wants it, and how much he's willing to pay for it. I have my own opinions on what constitutes quality, and he's already defined "need" for us, but I have no idea where the other two parameters fit into his own personal equation and they're not for me to judge anyway.

[Tronster]

I think the OP needs to tell us what kind of budget he has for an AR. If its tight, I agree a standard DPMS thats properly maintained will serve him well. For a few hundred dollars more he can get into a no-frills no-nonsense milspec BCM di rifle that he can really run hard, and is on par with a Colt without paying a premium for the Colt name.

[Hmac]

For a few hundred dollars more he can get into a no-frills no-nonsense milspec BCM di rifle that he can really run hard, and is on par with a Colt without paying a premium for the Colt name.

Yes. If we're still speaking of value. This would be the maximally cost-efficient route.

[Tronster]

I've actually got a hankering for a BCM A4 mod 1 rifle. Full 20" chrome lined barrel with rifle length gas tube, A2 handguards, fixed buttstock, A2 sights, detach carry handle. Other than a full auto position on the selector, it's basically a USGI milspec issue weapon. Well, at least years ago it was, before the collapsible stocks and shorter barrels and optics of today's issue weapons. It would be an accurate, stable, soft shooting platform. I think pre-panic they were costing just over a grand.

[Snowgun]

For a few hundred dollars more he can get into a no-frills no-nonsense milspec BCM di rifle that he can really run hard, and is on par with a Colt without paying a premium for the Colt name.

Yes. If we're still speaking of value. This would be the maximally cost-efficient route.

I'd agree with that....So how do we know it's on par with a Colt?