Shotguns

[LumberZach]

Now for a whole new topic,

I would say I know a fair deal about "tactical" guns and what I want/what is generally better or worse. Lately, I have been looking into upgrading my hunting shotguns to a semi-automatic and I feel like I am in a whole new playing field. Biggest thing that I want to know is: Inertia or Gas operated systems? Which is better? I wanted a Versa Max for a while now, but with the issues Remington is having I am a little worried to go that route, just too many horror stories about things. I have narrowed things down to Browning Maxus, or the new A5, or the Benelli super black eagle 2. I would rather buy American, but it is starting to look like that option is leaving the table. Love to know what those who know think!

Thanks guys.

[dtapper2]

The Browning Maxus or the Winchester SX3 are my favorites, hands down. The gas operation seems to cut a little recoil down compared to inertia shotguns. I have owned an inertia gun, sold it not more than 2 months later.

There are thousands of guys who swear by an inertia system, but i'm just not one of them. They do stay cleaner, however.

[Dave]

Gas = softer recoil, inertia = lower maintenance, easier cleaning, more reliability if not clean.

I shoot a Benelli M1, one of the hardest recoiling guns according to the internet, but it is fine by me (tall, lanky guy, so I'm not the best equipped to handle recoil). Followup shots shooting clays or tactical shotgun matches are not a problem with target loads, managed recoil slugs and buck are actually very pleasant to shoot.

I'd go with a gas gun for a dedicated clays gun where I'd be shooting 100-200 rounds in a sitting, but for general purpose & heavy duty use, nothing touches a Benelli IMHO.

[crbutler]

Agree that a gas operated gun is a bit softer than the Benelli system, however, the only time that has been an issue is high volume dove shooting (ie over a case of shells a day)

The new gas operated systems have made huge strides in reliability over the last 10 years or so. When I used to shoot a Remington 1100 in 3 gun, it needed to be cleaned every couple of hundred rounds or I had issues, but I have shot a Winchester SX2 for over 500 without cleaning it. (not saying the remington won't work fine for you.)

Having said that, while I have Browning Gold, Win SX2, Remington 11-87 SP, and Franchi Autoloaders, I exclusively hunt ducks with the older Benelli Super Black Eagle. The older of the two is a HK era gun (early 90's) and while the ejector broke several years ago, Benelli fixed it for free and the gun still fired and ejected my 3.5" waterfowl loads even with the ejector broken (I didn't realize it was broken until I shot some trap rounds and they would not eject). I would estimate it has 4000-5000 3.5" shells fired through it and works fine (I brought the second one because they went to the SBE II, and I don't like the looks of that gun's stock and trigger guard.) I will also use that gun on late season pheasant, but early on use a 20 ga double- and the SBE weighs about the same. The 3.5" shells do kick a bit, but I don't think much of anyone notes that when shooting at game. The 2 3/4 trap loads do kick more authoritatively than the gas guns though.

The big issue with shotguns is fit. I would go so far as to say that fit is everything in a bird gun. If you close your eyes and bring the gun to your shoulder and its pointing anywhere but where your eyes are looking when you open them, that gun is going to not work well for you.

My advice is best option- find someone who has a gun like you are interested in and shoot a round or two of skeet or sporting clays with it. You will know if it fits at that point. Second best is the close your eyes, mount the gun and look method. Try to be wearing what you will be wearing when you are using the gun when doing this.

A single shot that fits you will kill more birds than an auto that doesn't fit. Pretty much anything that is out there from a major maker is reliable enough with modest maintenance for hunting use. Don't sweat the reliability reports from the gun rags.

[rugersol]

Only auto shotgun I ever had an issue with was an SBE ... in the duck blind ... it jammed! ... ya, I did the 50rd 3.5in break-in! ... was it enough?! ... maybe not! ... 50rd 3.5in shells ain't cheap, neither!

I've got a SX2 dolled up fer 3-gun ... the bit I've shot it, I've had zero issues!

If I were to buy a new automatic today, it'd be the FN SLP (maybe the one with the pistol-grip)

I don't know if it's important (anymore) to go with a 3in chamber, to reliably shoot 2 3/4in shells ... but, I have zero use fer 3.5in shells ... so, given the choice, I'll opt fer a 3in chamber! YMMV

[smurfman]

I prefer the gas operated guns over the inertia/recoil operated ones. They usually weigh a little more than inertia/recoil operated guns which isn't an issue for the waterfowling which I mostly use these guns for. I feel they do attenuate recoil much better and I notice the difference when shooting from a sitting position such as when turkey hunting or when shooting waterfowl in a grain field or from a boat. Get into a good snow goose shoot and I very quickly realize the difference. I currently own and use Browning Gold and Beretta 391 autos. The Gold is my waterfowl/turkey gun and the 391s are my wife's target/upland guns and my back up for waterfowl and upland hunting. I had a Winchester SX-2 but foolishly sold it later on. It and the Gold were/are 3.5" guns but that did not prevent them from cycling even 7/8 oz target loads reliably. The light loads needed regular cleaning and lube but not any worse than a Remington 11-87. The Berettas seemingly go forever on these light loads.

As alluded to, I haven't found these guns to be overly sensitive to being dirty the 391s often go a season without being cleaned as my wife doesn't like doing it. I'll clean one of her guns at the beginning of hunting season as it is my back up for trips. Other than that they run well if a little CLP type lube is put on the moving parts on occasion. To a point, reliability is more important than price to me. I switched to them after running 1100/11-87s, S&W 1000, and Mossberg 5500/9200 guns for a while. When clean these guns worked well but they did need to be cleaned regularly. The Browning and even Winchester went several hundred rounds before needing a little new lube applied

I had a SBE briefly, it was a pain in the rear as it did not work reliably. It also kicked terribly, even with 3" shells. It was from the H&K era and, to be fair, was built when these guns first became super popular. H&K did not check them out as carefully as previously or later in order to keep up with demand. At one time we had 6 of these guns in camp one week, by the end three of them were still working with two of them being at least a year old while the rest were from that year. We cannibalized the others to keep one running and relied on spare guns for the others. That was only a short period of time many years ago and I suspect the few guns involved have been fixed long ago as one seldom hears of problems with SBEs.
I might lean more towards this type of action if looking for a mostly upland gun that doubles occasionally for waterfowl. For that a 3" chambered gun would be a few ounces lighter and I see no significant advantage to the 3.5" shells, even for geese. So, I guess I would suggest a gas gun if waterfowling and higher volume shooting but lean toward an inertia gun if more upland hunting is expected. My preference is an O/U as I hate scrounging around to pick up my empties; I am a hull whore as well as feel leaving empties is a form of littering.

[LumberZach]

Thanks for all of the knowledgeable responses guys,

Mostly I want this to be a hard core waterfowl gun, I have never had a gun in a camo pattern but for this one I am probably going to spend the extra and get it in max-4 pattern. It is starting to sound like I should lean toward a gas gun. I am just curious if any of you guys have used semi autos in freezing rain/sleet/the nastiest weather experienced and if any troubles were had with either one. Primarily I want this to be a hardcore water fowling gun, but it will primarily be a trap/clay busting gun if I am being completely honest. You guys say the gas guns get really dirty quick, has it caused a lot of problems in the newer guns? I am very happy to clean gun, but sometimes I do go out and shoot ridiculous amounts in a day such as a case or two I am just wondering if I will encounter problems there.

Thanks again guys!

[Xscream]

Any reason you don't have a Beretta 391 on the list? Light recoil, reliable and good in a duck blind.

[LumberZach]

Any reason you don't have a Beretta 391 on the list? Light recoil, reliable and good in a duck blind.

Somehow, some friend of my fathers wanted him to check out a bunch of his guns take them out shoot them make sure they were good to go. I am not really sure what the situation was, it was a little weird to me, but there was a beretta semi auto in the pile. I have no idea what model it was, but I heard that all auto Berettas were variations of the 391. I shot it and shot it and loved it! Except the controls just seemed really funky to me, there seemed to be too many weird buttons that just weren't needed. I really enjoyed shooting it, it shot just about like I wanted but there were all these weird buttons and features that I just don't want. I got used to them and they were fine, but when I first picked it up it took a few minutes to familiarize and understand what they were doing. Part of it is also why I shy away from benelli's, because I would just rather not have an Italian gun. Not that there is anything inherently wrong, I would just rather not buy Italian.

[smurfman]

My wife has taken shooting lessons with Dan Carlisle and has gone through a case ( a real case of 500 rounds, not 250 which is a flat) without cleaning and had zero problems. This with Beretta 12 ga guns, one 390 and one 391, while using 7/8 oz loads of Alliant Promo powder. The gun was not cleaned before hand either and had several hundred rounds put through it previously. All the "cleaning" it received before the lessons were to have a couple drops of CLP dropped through the hole in the bolt for the handle, a quick wipe of the action bar and piston rod with a piece of paper towel and some more CLP. The Browning/Winchester received pretty much the same treatment through the season though they did not see as many rounds as the Berettas. The most shells I've gone through in a day of waterfowling was a little over 5 boxes and the Beretta performed flawlessly with 3" steel. It got cleaned after about 3 days of such shooting but only because I dropped it in the muck of a pond. I normally don't clean until I get back home on hunting trips. Unless they get soaked or if they begin to slow down after being used in harvested small grain fields, my waterfowl guns don't get thoroughly cleaned until after the season. Reliability of gas guns has improved greatly since the 1980s, I think mainly due to Beretta and their 300 series guns.

Any gas or inertia gun can have problems in extreme weather, the gas guns seem to not like being soaking wet. I've shot in some tournaments where the rain could be measured over an inch an hour and the gas guns had some problems. Get enough water in the gas chamber or whatever to decrease chamber size and cycling problems will result. the couple inertai/recoil guns I saw at these shoots had no problems that I saw or heard of. My wife shot at those same tourneys but not when the rain was that heavy. Some people have all the luck.

In the field, I only had problems with reliability when hunting in harvested wheat, oat, or barley fields. Not only is the chaff rather fine and gets into everything, but the soils these crops were grown on were also very fine. It gummed up any gun if left on ground or the wind was blowing fairly hard but the gas guns seemed to be more problematic. Using a lay out blind reduced the odds of problems greatly as did using a canvas tarp to cover the action in the days before I had a ground blind. I used the tarp during one goose hunt when it rained 2.5" in 4 hours. I had no problems though one with an Ithaca 37 and another with a Mossberg 500 did. Keeping the gun clean was the key, those guns were pushed into the mud and that would have gummed up a pipe.

[crbutler]

In regards to your comments on foul weather problems-

With the gas guns, occasionally I had trouble with bad moisture, but that involved the gun sitting in water on the blind, and then all I had to do was tap the bolt handle (happened once.)

With the Benelli, this will sound like lots of trouble, but given the relative use its not.

Had the dog occasionally rub up against me and knock the bolt out of full lock up and not notice it. (not a gun problem)

Had mis sized shells not chamber (ammo problem)

The above mentioned breaking of the ejector.

2 times in really bad (cold) weather the firing pin failed to fire the shell. I finally learned that once you have ice on the lake, degrease the bolt and use mica or graphite to lube it. What was occuring was the break free was freezing up and slowing the firing pin.

To be honest, if any of the guns I have heard you mention fits you, I would use it. Once you learn your gun, you learn how to prevent issues. A big issue with hunting is don't over lube it.

As to the high usage, that I would not worry about. The typical issue it seems to me is that the powder fouling is soft when you are shooting, but if you let it congeal in gun lube and dry out it causes trouble. I have not seen a modern gun have issues (just the old 1100) with continuous shooting. Clean it daily and I don't think you will have trouble with a few hundred birds in one session.

[LumberZach]

Thanks for the help guys!

I have not come to a decision yet, but I am going to keep researching and try to get a hold of some of these guns to shoot and decide.

Thanks again guys.

[Payne]

Other than its questionable looks, Benelli Vinci or Super Vinci is worth taking a look at.

I only shoot 3-gun with my shotguns, but the Vinci points and handles very well, takes apart in seconds for easy cleaning, has less perceived recoil than my M2 (subjective), and has been 100% reliable. Mark Roth of XrailRCI from Wisconsin makes 10 rd. tubes for it.

[LumberZach]

Other than its questionable looks, Benelli Vinci or Super Vinci is worth taking a look at.

I only shoot 3-gun with my shotguns, but the Vinci points and handles very well, takes apart in seconds for easy cleaning, has less perceived recoil than my M2 (subjective), and has been 100% reliable. Mark Roth of XrailRCI from Wisconsin makes 10 rd. tubes for it.

The Vinci looks awesome on paper, and I am sure it is a really great gun... but it is pretty much the ugliest gun I have seen. I am not generally one to shy down a gun because it is ugly, but that is one of them.

[Payne]

LumberZach

I was once told by a noted gunsmith and 3-gun shooter. "If you win a match, no one will remember how ugly your gun is". So far, people have noticed my guns far more than my shooting ability.