7.62 Modern Battle Rifle Experiences?

[crbutler]

Bigdog, the reason for the accuracy issues is reciprocating mass.

The piston guns have a chunk of steel attached to the barrel that in theory will change barrel harmonics, move around under recoil, etc.

Also, most guns made with piston systems are more "service" oriented and the ones that I have seen, a majority have chrome lined bores. Usually a chrome lined bore, while better for durability is not so good for fine accuracy.

Whatever the case, in my experience, the best of the DI guns shoot better than the best of the piston guns. The best of the piston guns are good, don't get me wrong, and my SCAR is more accurate than my FAL or some of the AR's (cheaper ones and the frankengun...) I guess my HK is a little better than most in that its about a 1.5" rifle at 100 with the few loads it likes.

[UnaStamus]

I'm in the process of putting together my first AR and am leaning toward a piston upper. Can one of you more experienced in the two platforms give me some ideas or reasons as to why one would be more accurate than the other? I will be hand loading my ammo for my gun and plan to shoot it put to 300 yds. I still haven't completely decided which platform to go with, but I tend to like the idea of keeping the bolt and chamber cool and clean with the piston as opposed to the DI. Is my reasoning incorrect?

Also to the OP, back in the 90's I owned the HK91 but didn't handload back then. I seem to remember the extractor was hell on the brass (note mine was select fire Class 3, if that affects it). It wasn't anywhere close to the accuracy of my other 7.62 guns, but it was fun to shoot and suited me out to about 100yds. I am learning a bit reading your topic, thanks for posting. I hope that once I've built my first AR in 5.56 my second will be in 7.62 (hope to use it for deer and hogs)

Accuracy is dependent upon which one you select. Piston operation is cooler and cleaner than DI, but DI tends to interfere less with barrel harmonics, which is why DI rifles can be made more accurate than piston. George Gardner of GA Precision had a good write-up on this some time back. However, we're talking about match precision where increments are being counted. There are piston rifles that are sub-MOA accurate. There also is a difference in accuracy standards between duty/sniper use and match use. My experience lies heavily in the 5.56 world for ARs, and to that end I can tell you that there's no one right answer. It all depends on what you plan to do. That's probably best left for a separate thread though, because it's a pretty hotly debated topic in and of itself.

I thought the 762 was like the USC et al in that they made a "special" mag so that it could not accept military stuff. They imply this on the web site. I might get a 762 if it wasn't neutered like that.

The last HK rifle I looked at had this issue.

That is what I was talking about. If they are 20 round military mags, then that's a nonissue.

The MR762A1 does not have all of the same components as the HK417, including the barrel, but it does have the same mag system. They just don't give you the same actual magazine that you would get in the 417. You can go get the 20rd mag and put it in the MR762A1.

Final thoughts on the HK...

In my experience, the quality of customer service is directly proportional to the issue you are trying to resolve.
Some companies quotes are better looking up front, knowing you will only have to purchase replacement inventory later on for their "lesser quality firearms".

The 417 and MR762 use the same mags. Not sure what you mean by single stack.
417 would be department owned, 762 officer owned.

I would at least look their system.
It's like settling for a Dodge when the GMC Sierra is right there in front of you...sure, it may be a little more money, but it is professional grade, and that makes all the difference.

I have hands-on time with an MR762A1, but no range time. My agency's SWAT team runs HK416 and G36C rifles, so I've got experience with those systems. In terms of reliability and system design, I know all that I need to. It's just the shooting dynamic of the MR762A1 that I am unfamiliar with. That said, I do know that the German Army is struggling to get better than 1.5MOA from it.

I am dealing with HK right now over some G36C components. Without going into details, it's not going well. I generally have no desire to give HK any money. HK agency sales are spotty at best, and individual officer sales are worse. A friend of mine is somewhat of a bigwig with a major agency, and he was told by an HK LE rep that they could get him an MR556A1 for LE price without a wait. It went nowhere and he wound up having to source the rifle from a commercial gun store because no HK LE dealers could get ahold of any rifles. HK wouldn't allocate any rifles for individual officer sales.

[johnlewjohn]

Never been a fan of the G36 myself.
I remember reading reports of those having problems right away, especially with plastic distorting around the trunnions in sustained fire.

I always felt the SIG family in their 551,552 series are preferable to the G36.

I was always a fan of the HK delayed roller lock system, and in some ways still feel that is a superior method of operation.
Sure those parts will eventually wear out (after many many rounds), but they are readily replaceable and available.

Before I purchased my MR762, I was really, really, I mean really ready to buy the SR25EMC...
My decision boiled down to DI vs Piston.
Once I decided on piston, HK was the only option that I really liked.
In some ways I wish I had stuck with the SR25, but I personally feel that the DI is an inferior system when it comes to reliable operation.

I agree, I hate giving HK money, but I feel the same way with KAC.
What I do not understand is why KAC charges so much for their rifles.
Even dealer pricing is high.
If they can get their pricing then great, good for them.
I am just cheap and always looking for quality at a great price point.

[UnaStamus]

I was not on board for picking the G36Cs, for the reason you explained. Snipers had to have folding pack guns though.

[connsolo]

Fnar?

[Spartan]

I have HK 91 .... its heavy yes but accurate ..... I like it ... couldn't find a reason to buy a Sig 716 ... or AR 10 .....also have FAL STG58 ... great but not as accurate are hk91

[BigDog58]

I have HK 91 .... its heavy yes but accurate ..... I like it ... couldn't find a reason to buy a Sig 716 ... or AR 10 .....also have FAL STG58 ... great but not as accurate are hk91

Now, I really regret selling my HK91 just before I moved up here in 2002. I never thought I would want it as badly as I do now, and the pricing is outside my budget at the moment. I do have to say, it was superbly accurate out to 400yds which was my max shooting distance on my property in GA. Dang, now I also miss being able to walk out my door and shoot anytime I wanted.

[farmerj]

sorry,

I'd still take my M14 over any other 7.62 rifle out there today.

[Rip Van Winkle]

sorry,

I'd still take my M14 over any other 7.62 rifle out there today.

What an old fossil.

(Takes one to know one!)

[farmerj]

Hard to replace iron that's just reliable.

[jshuberg]

My GAP-10 in .308 has been able to hold .6 MOA out to 1000 yards. It's very much on the heavy side for an AR-10 based platform, but it's an absolutely fantastic rifle to shoot.

[Spartan]

my g3 has a vintage hensoldt 3x9x40 ... it was nib when I bought it ... have shot pigs at 230 meters and shot at 300 and 400 yards .... it circumcises bugs at 200 yrds

[Erud]

My GAP-10 in .308 has been able to hold .6 MOA out to 1000 yards. It's very much on the heavy side for an AR-10 based platform, but it's an absolutely fantastic rifle to shoot.

You should take that thing out to a local long range F-Class match! The x-ring is .5 MOA and the 10-ring is a huge full 1 MOA. If you're consistently holding .6 at 1000 yards, that should translate to scores in the neighborhood of 200-12x, and you'll be winning most matches you enter! You'd really embarrass the hard core F-ers with the 32" 7mm and 6.5-.284 single shot rifles when you beat them all with your 20" gas gun in .308!


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[BigDog58]

My GAP-10 in .308 has been able to hold .6 MOA out to 1000 yards. It's very much on the heavy side for an AR-10 based platform, but it's an absolutely fantastic rifle to shoot.

You should take that thing out to a local long range F-Class match! The x-ring is .5 MOA and the 10-ring is a huge full 1 MOA. If you're consistently holding .6 at 1000 yards, that should translate to scores in the neighborhood of 200-12x, and you'll be winning most matches you enter! You'd really embarrass the hard core F-ers with the 32" 7mm and 6.5-.284 single shot rifles when you beat them all with your 20" gas gun in .308!


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STOP STOP ! You have me ROFLMAOPIP.... I sure wish I had a gas, or for that fact, a bolt gun that could hold that at even 500 yds. Maybe I could beat OldmanFCSA for a change

[jshuberg]

My GAP-10 in .308 has been able to hold .6 MOA out to 1000 yards. It's very much on the heavy side for an AR-10 based platform, but it's an absolutely fantastic rifle to shoot.

You should take that thing out to a local long range F-Class match! The x-ring is .5 MOA and the 10-ring is a huge full 1 MOA. If you're consistently holding .6 at 1000 yards, that should translate to scores in the neighborhood of 200-12x, and you'll be winning most matches you enter! You'd really embarrass the hard core F-ers with the 32" 7mm and 6.5-.284 single shot rifles when you beat them all with your 20" gas gun in .308!

I didn't say that I was able to hold .6 MOA consistently, but that I know the rifle can. I've shot 6" 5 round groups with it, but under ideal conditions from a bench with basically zero wind. Under more "normal" conditions I can usually hold 1.5-2 MOA to 1000, but that's not the gun, that's me. The guys at GA Precision really know how to make a fantastic rifle! I believe it took them around 8 months to build it after I placed my order, but it was well worth the wait! Right now I've got a NSX 3.5-15x50 F1 scope on it, but think I might change switch to something with higher magnification to better see the mirage.

I definitely want to get into F-Class this year up at Gopher.